Kitchen appliances

[BakerAunt]

Thanks, Mike. Apparently Lowe's has this kind of computer program for designing kitchens that they use when helping people work out cabinets. We will start with the hand graphing and go from there, but I need to decide on appliances, as that affects the layout. We are working with a much smaller kitchen area than I would have liked, even with taking some space from a closet on the other side of the wall, but to get a house in the desired location, I had to accept that (kicking and screaming, I might add).

[Mike Nolan]

The primary advantage that a store's design program has is that it's free and they do most of the work, the primary disadvantage is that the program is designed primarily to sell the things that the store carries, so it may not have some makes and models of appliances, cabinets, etc.

During the 9-12 months that we spent designing our house, I paralleled the architect's work on nearly a daily basis. This affected a number of design decisions, including resizing a number of rooms because the furniture and appliances wouldn't lay out the way we wanted them. At one point we pushed the west wall out a foot, increasing the kitchen from 17 x 17 to 17 x 18.

When I would visit the work site during construction, I knew where every wall and support structure had to be, so I was able to point it out when they had one wall in the wrong place by about 8 inches.

[BakerAunt]

Mike, does this look somewhat like what you used?

http://www.broderbund.com/p-963-punch-interior-design-suite-v19.aspx

$39.99 might save a lot of frustration (and marital strain) down the road.

My husband and I are not that computer saavy, so how easy are these programs to use?

[Mike Nolan]

I would say that's probably the 2nd or 3rd generation beyond the package that I used back in 1996, but probably related technology. I thought it was fairly simple to use at the time, and although I'm a techie, I'm got really into doing graphical things. It's pretty good at making sure your corners match up correctly, but if you've got any odd angles, it'll handle those as well.

One of the successors to the 3D Home Architect program that I used for a while (I sort of lost interest in keeping up with all the updates after a few years, because the house was finished) did 3D color renderings that were so good they almost looked like photographs!

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Mike Nolan.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Mike Nolan.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I do not understand the attraction of electric ovens but that is probably because the ones I've used were invariably very inaccurate with loads of hot and cool spots. They required steep learning curves. I've always loved gas and to this day the best oven I ever owned was a very inexpensive Amana. My pastry chef friend roomed with me and used it to make wedding cakes between jobs but because it was a regular, home oven it limited the size of cakes she could make. She, too, loved it.

We have a 60 inch range because that is what the builder put in and as expensive as a replacement range is, putting in cabinets to take up the extra space a smaller range would leave makes the big range look cheap in comparison. Still it took several years of savings to replace the range we had in their.

We had a Garland commercial range (the first page of the instruction manual said in huge letters that this was not to be installed in a domestic setting). It was great in that it was dead-simple. I would pop off the oven knob and crank the thermostat when making pizza and, viola, we had a pizza oven that cooked pizzas at 700 degrees. It could have gone higher, probably, Garlands are not insulated so I was nervous about setting the wall behind or the cabinets on either side of it on fire.

It also had a 24 inch stainless steel griddle which was fantastic when I figure out how to use it which sat on top of a restaurant broiler which was also phenomenal.

That said, it had no windows in the oven doors or lights in the ovens. It was not insulated so when my pizzas were cooking at 700 the doors were at 700 which is very unpleasant in the summer and very dangerous all year round, especially with two, wild toddler boys. Whenever we turned it on we would yell "oven's hot" as a warning and the boys knew to stay on the other side of the island. But it was terrifying having friends over. I cut out some pipe insulation to fit the door and then duck-taped magnets onto the back side and this would go on the oven door and be cool to the touch. But it was ugly so my wife nixed it. It was the birth of our even wilder baby girl that prompted us to purchase a new range. I am too old at this point to guard the oven while baking.

We were limited to three or four different ranges because of the big space. We chose a Blue Star based on recommendations from some chef friends and on internet reviews. I would never buy a Viking as they are overpriced and not reliable (they were good 20 years ago). Wolf is okay but not as good as they used to be before merging with Sub-Zero (not sure who acquired whom) and they are also very pricey. Blue Star was the best value for the money.

It cooks and bakes nicely, has windows in the oven doors, lights that go on with a big rocker switch, and even insulation in the door. I would never buy an oven with controls at the back because who wants to reach across cooking food to mess with the controls. The downside is the place we bought it does not service it and it is hard to find service. It needs to be adjusted and I haven't bothered to setup an appointment and I cannot find instructions for DIY online.

It came with an add-on cast iron grill/griddle that replaces two burners. I use it but if I'd had to buy separately I would have passed. It's stupid expensive as an add-on and I could buy several dozen nice, burner top griddle/grills from Bed, Bath, and Beyond for what Blue Star charges. But I use the griddle several times a day. I used to use a flat top so I like it. My wife is not as enamored of it and does not use it. But when Dad's Diner is making pancakes, waffles, and eggs, it comes in very handy.

[cwcdesign]

This may be a crazy idea, but have you thought of looking at IKEA for ideas of smaller kitchens/appliances? I'm just thinking in terms of research and that you might find brands that you haven't heard of before

[BakerAunt]

Thanks for the detailed discussion of Blue Star, Aaron. I'd never heard of the company but will do some investigating and checking of reviews. My husband would really love it if I went with an all gas range, as he finds them more cost efficient.

I checked the Blue Star website, and their 36-inch RCS Series model is about the same price as the Frigidaire dual fuel I looked at yesterday. The 30-inch is about $600 less, but still appears to be five burners, which I think is a bit tight. It also was not clear to me that the burners were sealed (in case of those wonderful boil overs that happen from time to time).

From what you say, it sounds like it is well insulated.

I have baked with gas. In fact, I baked the various parts of our wedding cake in an old gas oven at the place we were renting--an oven that was even on the verge and ceased working properly about a day later. If the oven maintains a consistent temperature without hot spots, then gas would work. My Thermador electric oven has been wonderful in that regard.

There is a Blue Star dealership in South Bend, as well as a service place, so that is within half an hour of where we will be living.

My research yesterday led me to the same conclusion about Viking and Wolf in terms of dual fuel. Kitchen Aid was out of the running very quickly.

Did you also get your range hood from Blue Star?

Thanks for responding. You have given me a lot to consider.

[BakerAunt]

Hi, Cwcdesign. It's a good idea, but there is no Ikea anywhere near us in the lower panhandle of Texas, and unless there is one in South Bend, there is not a close one to us in Indiana.

My husband likes the idea of the design program. He probably thinks it will be cheaper than marriage counseling. 🙂

[Mike Nolan]

According to the Ikea website, the only Ikea in Indiana is one that will open this fall in Fishers, which I think is near Indianapolis. They stick to major metro areas.

I remember looking at Wolf back in 1996 and thinking it was the ugliest range we'd ever seen. We went with a DCS 48" dual fuel range, DCS was splitting off from Viking at the time. (DCS used to be the manufacturing division of Viking.) They got kind of a bad rep after some financial problems in the early 2000's and were acquired by Fisher and Paykel in 2004. I had to order a replacement oven rack bracket for mine a couple of years ago, I think it came from Australia; it took 6 weeks. Otherwise, mine has been very dependable, the only other problem we've had in 20 years was a hinge issue that was covered by the warranty.

I know a few people who have installed commercial ranges, they had to put fireboard behind the range and on both sides. I hadn't heard about the lack of door insulation, but I'm not surprised by that.

[Mike Nolan]

One thing you have to be careful about with ovens that advertise they can handle a full sheet pan is they may not provide enough space for air circulation around it. You need at least an inch in every direction. I can fit a full sheet pan in my big oven, but just barely, and there's less than a half inch between the pan and the walls. I found some 3/4 sized sheet pans at a restaurant supply store in Pittsburgh, they're about 22 x 17.

[Mike Nolan]

Gas ovens and gas grills will have hot spots, too. Try the 'bread test' in your gas oven sometime. (Cover a rack with slices of bread and see how evenly they toast. A chef friend told me this is the first thing he does when he moves to a different kitchen.)

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Mike Nolan.

[BakerAunt]

My largest pan is 18x12 (the one I use for making Chex Mix). There is not a lot of space around it, but for Chex Mix that is not a problem. It might be an issue if I were to try to bake a cake in it.

The electric oven in my Thermador has baked amazingly evenly, I have not found the need to rotate items during baking, so I'm spoiled in that regard. However, I will certainly do the toast test once I have a new oven. What did not impress me about the Kitchen Aid was the picture of the cookies, where it was very clear that the baking was quite uneven.

Thanks to all of you for giving me a lot to think about!

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by BakerAunt.

[BakerAunt]

Aaron mentioned Amana. I have an Amana refrigerator that I bought in 2001, and it has been great. I did have to have the thermostat replaced for the refrigerator a couple of years ago, but the repair cost was reasonable.

However, Amana was bought out a couple of years later by Maytag or Whirlpool (or was it both?). I'm not sure if the quality suffered or not.

[aaronatthedoublef]

There is an Ikea in Schaumburg which is probably a couple of hours from South Bend if I remember my Chicagoland geography. I swear there used to be on in Chicago in the Bakers Square area but that may be faulty memory.

Blue Star does not have sealed burners. It has burners that drip through into drip pans which actually fit nicely in a home dishwasher. Most of the Garland pieces did not. A couple of chef friends offered to lend me their commercial dishwashers but once in the spring when the weather warmed up and once in the fall before the first freeze I would take the parts outside and hose them down.

I didn't mean to imply that gas ovens had no hotspots - they definitely do. But gas ovens also have some natural convection that help mitigate them. But even if your brand new oven, electric, gas, wood burning, coal (really popular here for pizza) or whatever starts out with no hot spots it will develop them over time as a result of heating and cooling and expanding and contracting. That's why it is good to be able to have your oven regularly serviced. Which, BTW, highlights another problem with commercial ranges in a home. The people who fix home appliances do not know about commercial appliances and the people who fix commercial appliances are not bonded to work in your house.

Convection ovens have caused me challenges with bread in that the outside browns way too fast and long before the inside is even close to finished. The ovens I use at our temple are convection (I have not figured out how to turn off the fans) and it took me a couple of test runs to get things right. It does not appear to do anything either good our bad for my pizzas in my oven. It just makes noise with the fan running.

I've never tried DCR but on Mike's recommendation I might. But I hope to never have to buy another one of these ever again.

Whirlpool owns: Maytag, Amana, and KitchenAid. The quality of all these brands has dropped since they were acquired but my parents owned their house for over 50 years and had a total of two refrigerators, both the same model Amana with the refrigerator on top and the freezer on the bottom. We sold the house with the second still running just fine.

[BakerAunt]

The unsealed burners would be a deal breaker for me. Sealed burners are one of the features I love about my Thermador. My husband and I also are not dishwasher people. We had the broken one in this house removed and replaced with a cabinet, and we will remove the nonworking one in Indiana and not replace it when we gut the kitchen.

We are planning to take the Amana refrigerator with us (bought in 2001) and put it in the apartment kitchen. (The previous owners of our house built an apartment over the garage, complete with kitchen. In addition to giving guests their own space, I plan to use it for some baking projects.) I will need to decide on a refrigerator for the new kitchen in the house. I want one with the freezer on bottom (like the Amana), and possibly with French doors. I do not want an automatic icemaker or a water and ice dispenser in the door (we have well water, and that brings up filter issues).

I've not even begun researching refrigerators yet. Sigh.

I'm happy with our Maytag washer, but just because a company makes a good washing machine does not mean it makes a good stove.

I will look at DCR, but so far the Frigidaire dual fuel is coming out ahead. (My husband says to get the range with which I will be happy--as long as the burners are gas, which we both prefer.) I also will look at separate gas cooktops and electric ovens.

When I bought the Thermador, I thought it would be my stove for life. It never occurred to me that after 10 years there would not be parts for it. Ten years seems to be the life of the electrical panel. I had it replaced a few years after I bought the range, when a lightening strike (not at my house) created a surge that fried the panel. That new one lasted exactly ten years--several years beyond when the company stopped manufacturing the panels for this range. CoreCentric in Illinois repaired the panel, or I would have been left with a stove top that worked and no oven.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by BakerAunt.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by BakerAunt.

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