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  • #10568
    chandos
    Participant

      Wow! There is a lot of information here to read through! I am aleady learning a lot. BakerAunt, you're not kidding about loving to discuss baking. I use the active dry yeast in a jar. When a recipe calls for packets, I use the conversion on the jar. I think it's 2.25 tsp equals one packet. And I proof it in warm water with a little sugar. But after reading the post about sugar interfering with yeast, I won't do that anymore. I also fluff up the flour and spoon it into the measuring cup. I saw that on the KAF website. Mike, what is the bench rest? I'm thinking it is after the dough has been deflated from the first rise (in the bowl) and before it goes into the pan for the second rise. Is that right? I have several of the recommended books on reserve at the libray and am anxious to get started reading and baking!

      #10566
      Mike Nolan
      Keymaster

        I was looking at the Popovers recipe in the KAF Baker's Companion, and the sodium level it reports for the recipe has to be way off. It says 11 milligrams per popover, but it uses 1/2 teaspoon of salt and that's about 1100 milligrams of sodium, and that doesn't count the sodium in the flour, eggs and milk. My Fitness Pal says it is about 145 milligrams of sodium per popover (12 per batch).

        I think KAF has an errata page, but I don't recall the link. If you find out, I'll check to see if the sodium level for that recipe has been corrected.

        I suspect I can cut the salt at least in half and it won't affect the recipe much. (I once tried Alton Brown's popover recipe, it uses a lot more salt and we thought they were inedible because of the salt level.)

        • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by Mike Nolan.
        BakerAunt
        Participant

          Sunday morning, I tried a new recipe, Hazelnut Waffles with Pear Compote, from King Arthur Flour's Whole Grain Baking, pp. 19-20. I have the first edition of the cookbook, and I discovered that something was missing--how much liquid and what kind (milk, buttermilk?) I googled the recipe online and found a single adaptation that used 1 to 1 and 1/2 cups buttermilk. I used a combination of buttermilk and 1% milk (did not have enough of either). I cut the vanilla from 1 tsp. to 1/4 tsp., as I think KAF tends to overdo vanilla. I am using up some salted butter, so I deleted the salt. The recipe made 3 double and one single Belgium waffles. They are very good and filling. I did not make the pear compote; I had mine with maple syrup, and my husband had his with honey.
          I have emailed the folks at King Arthur to find out what the liquid ingredient and amount should be. I've also asked them if there is a place that lists errata for the cookbooks. When I get that information, I'll add an addendum to this post.

          Addendum: I heard back from the bakers at King Arthur Flour. It should be 1 and 1/2 cups buttermilk.

          • This topic was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by BakerAunt.
          • This topic was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by BakerAunt.
          #10554
          Mike Nolan
          Keymaster

            The debate over active dry yeast (ADY) vs instant yeast (IDY) is interesting. Here's some history on commercial yeast.

            Compressed yeast cakes were developed in the 1800's by the Fleischmann brothers. Before that, bakers generally used sourdough or 'old dough' to seed their dough with yeast, or got liquid yeast from beer brewers.

            When it was first introduced during WW II, active dry yeast always needed to be proofed in warm water, but ADY has improved over the years. Many bakers now state that they don't bother to proof their ADY, but the yeast manufacturers still recommend it.

            Instant dry yeast was developed in the 1990's and does not need to be proofed, it can just be mixed in with the flour.

            These days cake yeast is hard to find, I've seen it in the freezer section at the grocery store but I've also been told that freezing yeast cakes kills off a lot of the yeast. ADY and IDY can both be frozen, I've know of bakers who had IDY that had been in the freezer for five or more years and still worked fine. Large commercial bakers buy liquid yeast in 1 gallon containers, but it has a very short shelf life and isn't available to home bakers.

            I generally use Fleischmann's IDY which I buy in 1 pound packages at Sams Club. In all the baking I've done, the only recipe that didn't work well with IDY was James Beard's Monkey Bread recipe, from "Beard on Bread", a classic book on bread baking and one that has been ranked as the favorite book on bread by several generations of bakers. It worked much better with ADY.

            Ive got some SAF Gold osmotolerant yeast, which is designed for sweet dough recipes, but I haven't tried making Monkey Bread with it yet. Sugar is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts water, so, like salt, it can inhibit yeast growth. Recipes that have more than 6% sugar by bakers weight (eg, compared to the flour weight) are ones that can see sugar inhibit yeast growth by depriving it of the water it needs to grow.

            #10552
            wonky
            Participant

              Oh Boy...it has been a long time since I have posted, although I have lurked some. Baker Aunt, I noticed your reference to me regarding the spelt bread, and it made my day that you remembered me. Thank you for your kind words. BTW...I still have not tried working with spelt again, but I might give it another shot.

              I had orders for 62 loaves of bread to be given as gifts this Christmas, which goes without saying that I was a tad busy. I still baked for my regular customers as well. I have been experimenting a lot, and have some new favorites to boast about. As many of you know, I created my own recipe, and many of my new breads are variations of that. Some of my best sellers are my new creations, that I am really proud of . One of the new favorites is pomegranate infused cranberry, and also blueberry infused cranberry. I add two eggs also to my own recipe, along with other small changes. One of them being the addition of a couple teaspoons of vanilla to a 4 loaf recipe. These breads really toast well, as the toasting caramelizes the sugar in the fruit as it heats. They are also excellent for french toast, and bread pudding, with a warm vanilla sauce.

              Anyway I will try to show up here a little more often.

              BTW, I speak with Cass (Kid Pizza) now and then also. He is well, and is the same Cass we all loved. He has moved to a different assisted living in Vegas, and seems to be happy there.

              From the frozen tundra, AKA Wisconsin....Wonky

              #10550
              Italiancook
              Participant

                I baked KAF Easy Cinnamon Bread. I have a supply of the cinnamon chips, so I was in luck with the recipe given someone posted they non longer sell them. My sister made this recipe last year (as I recall), and she used Hershey's cinnamon chips. She bought them online from Walmart, but I think they sell them in my local store. She made the mistake of ordering them during the summer, and they melted. The store refunded her money.

                #10547
                Italiancook
                Participant

                  Blanche, Welcome!

                  I use SAF (I think) instant yeast sold by KAF. I keep it in a plastic container in the freezer. Blanche, I wonder if the yeast you're using is perfect for KAF recipes. The reason is because of a recent call I had with KAF Baker's Hotline. I needed to know how to convert some type of packaged yeast to the instant yeast for a recipe not from their website. It was not an exact conversion. You may want to call their Baker's Hotline (Phone: 1-855-371-2253) and ask them whether the type of yeast you use equally converts to their recipes calling for instant yeast.

                  #10545
                  BakerAunt
                  Participant

                    For Saturday's dinner, I made Dilled Salmon and Couscous (recipe on this site), which we will have with a side of peas from the freezer.

                    #10543
                    BakerAunt
                    Participant

                      Town Meeting Chicken (or Turkey) Pie

                      King Arthur Flour used to send out emails with new recipes, and that is the origin of this one from perhaps ten to twelve years ago. It has not been posted on their recipe site. The original recipe used two rotisserie chickens, but I like it as a way to use up leftover turkey. I have modified the recipe over the years to use less butter in the filling. I deleted the salt in the filling and added the sherry as well as the flax meal. I changed the topping by substituting in 25% whole wheat pastry flour (and I may try increasing that amount) and using buttermilk rather than regular milk. On occasion, I've used frozen mixed vegetables rather than peas and carrots.

                      The full recipe bakes nicely in a 13x9 inch lasagna pan (3 inches deep). A half recipe bakes nicely in a 4-inch deep square 9-inch ceramic dish. I managed to bake a 3/4 recipe in a 13x9 inch Le Creuset baker with only slight overflow.

                      Filling:
                      3/4 cups flour
                      1/4 cup whole wheat flour
                      6 Tbs. unsalted butter
                      3 1/2 cups chicken or turkey broth
                      2 1/2 cups milk (I use 1%)
                      1/2 tsp. black pepper
                      1/2 tsp dried thyme
                      1-2 Tbs. sherry (can be omitted, but it really works nicely for flavor)
                      3 Tbs. ground flax meal (optional)
                      5 1/2 to 6 Cups cut-up chicken or turkey
                      12-16 oz. bag frozen peas and carrots, slightly thawed

                      Biscuit Topping:
                      3 cups unbleached flour
                      1 cup whole wheat pastry flour
                      4 tsp. Bakewell Cream (note: this is NOT the same as baking powder)
                      2 tsp. baking soda
                      1 tsp. salt
                      1/2 cup unsalted butter (that is 4 oz. or one stick, or 8 Tbs.)
                      1 1/2 cups buttermilk (or regular milk, if desired)

                      Preheat oven to 450F. Spray DEEP 13x9 inch pan with cooking spray (I use Pam). Set aside.

                      I usually stir together the dry ingredients for the topping, then set aside while I make the filling.

                      For the filling, melt butter in a 6-quart heavy saucepan over medium heat. Add the combined AP and whole wheat flour, and stir until combined and smoothed. Gradually add the broth, whisking constantly. Cook and stir the sauce over medium heat until it comes to a boil, then reduce heat and simmer for five minutes. Slowly stir or whisk in milk. Add pepper, thyme, and sherry. Stir in flax meal. Stir in chicken and vegetables. Bring to a simmer.

                      Pour mixture into prepared pan, and put into the oven while you are preparing the biscuits.

                      For the biscuits: Combine dry ingredients thoroughly in a large bowl with a relatively flat bottom. (The flat bottom makes it easier to cut in the butter and to combine the dough.) As noted above, I usually do so before I make the filling.Cut 1/2 cup unsalted butter into 32 pieces. (I cut it into the 8 Tbs., and then each into 4 pieces.) Add the butter, a little at a time, and toss with the flour. You want to get all the pieces of butter coated with flour. Once all the butter is added, use a pastry cutter to cut in the butter to make small crumbly pieces. Add the buttermilk or regular milk all at once. Toss with fork until it begins to come together, then switch to a hand-held scraper and use it to bring the dough together. I fold it over itself in the bowl until it coheres.

                      On a piece of parchment paper, pat into a rectangle 3/4 of an inch thick. It's ok if the corners are rounded. Use a bench knife to cut into 12 pieces.

                      Carefully--there will be steam when you open the oven door--remove the pan with the filling from the oven. Carefully lay the biscuits evenly on top. Return pan to the oven and bake 15 minutes until filling is bubbly and biscuits are golden brown. (The original recipe says 15-18, but I find 15 sufficient.) Again, carefully--there will be steam when you open the oven door--remove the pan from the oven and let sit for at least 10 minutes before serving.

                      Note: when I make a half recipe in the deep 9-inch square dish, I pat the dough into a square and cut 9-biscuits for the topping.

                      The biscuit pie reheats beautifully in a microwave.

                      • This topic was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by BakerAunt.
                      #10539
                      BakerAunt
                      Participant

                        A couple of thoughts:

                        1. I have a used bread machine which I bought at an estate sale for $20. I only use it for the initial mixing and the kneading when I'm doing a recipe of up to 4 1/2 cups flour (5 is pushing it). I don't even allow it to rise in the bread machine, which I think is too small and gets too warm. For my larger recipes, I use a 7-quart Cuisinart mixer. Cuisinart got out of the mixer business a year later. I can do three loaves of bread in it.

                        2. You mention proofing your bread at 80F. I think that is too warm. I've not used a proofing box, but when it is exceptionally cool, I move the dough to a location that will be around 70F (in my case, close to the wood stove in the front room). Some people use the top of the refrigerator. For an initial rise, I cover the greased bowl with one of those food-safe "shower caps" that KAF sells or with some flat German plastic lids. I've also used saran. For the second rise, I like to put the shaped dough in its pan into a plastic snapped box. That keeps the bread from drying out on top.

                        3. Be careful not to add too much flour to your dough. That was a problem that I always had when I kneaded by hand. Too much flour will make the bread more dense.

                        • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by BakerAunt.
                        • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by BakerAunt.
                        #10535
                        Mike Nolan
                        Keymaster

                          I definitely approach cooking with an engineering perspective. I make notes on nearly every recipe I try, often writing right in the book! When I'm trying to design a new recipe, I take more extensive notes in a lab book. (You'll find I often recommend people make notes on their recipes noting what worked and what didn't.)

                          A number of years back my wife gave me a recipe her mother had written for honey wheat bread. I had to adapt it quite a bit (it called for lard, among other things), but for several years it was our daily bread, and I made it at least once a week. These days we don't eat as much bread as we used to, and our younger son has moved to California, but I still make it about once a month. You can find it here: Honey Wheat Bread

                          I also mill my own whole wheat flour using a Nutrimill impact mill my older son gave me for Christmas about 6 years ago.

                          If your mixer is that old, it might be from the days when Hobart owned Kitchaid. (Look on the band around the mixer and see if it says 'Hobart' on it.) Mine is the one we got as a wedding present in 1972 and it's still working great. If so, it's a real work horse of a machine, most people think the quality of KA mixers went down after the company was sold in the early 90's, though it appears to have gone back up in the last few years. If mine died, I'd be in a quandary, because I also have the pasta maker attachment. I'd probably buy the bottom-of-the line KA mixer for things like pasta and whipping egg whites but I'd look very hard into a something like an Ankarsrum or Bosch mixer for breadmaking, or maybe even a 12 quart table-top commercial mixer, though that'd be overkill.

                          • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by Mike Nolan.
                          #10532
                          chandos
                          Participant

                            It looks as if I have some reading to look forward to this winter. Aaronatthedoublef, I use a Kitchen Aid stand mixer that was a gift 27 years ago so I don't know how much more life it has. I also use a bread proofer for the rise, set to 80 degrees. The rise in the bowl looks fine but the pan rise doesn't get very high and then doesn't rise more in the oven. One of the posters here wrote that whole wheat flour dough takes a longer time to rise so maybe I'm putting it into the oven too soon (after about an hour pan rise). I did try the KAF whole wheat recipe that you referenced, with orange juice. My loaf rose about 2.5 inches at the most, nothing like the KAF photo and comments. And there is another 100% whole wheat flour recipe on their site that I tried with equally disappointing results. (I use Red Star active dry yeast that I get at Walmart.) You and Mike mentioned going back to using a stand mixer from a bread machine. I thought that a bread machine would give better results and have thought about getting one. It seems that isn't right.

                            Mike thanks for sharing your history. You bring an interesting perspective to baking.

                            #10529
                            Mike Nolan
                            Keymaster

                              I know from experience that you can cut salt down to about 1% by baker's weight (eg, relative to the weight of the flour) before you start to notice any significant effects or difference in taste.

                              I've made Tuscan bread a few times, it is salt free. It's pretty bland and tends to be very airy, because there's no salt to inhibit the yeast. I've eaten in a Tuscan restaurant, the bread is meant to be dipped in spicy sauces.

                              #10528
                              Mike Nolan
                              Keymaster

                                No, I'm not a food industry professional, I'm what most people would call a serious home baker, though in the past 4 years I have taken a week-long class in pastry making (pies, tarts, turnovers, etc) at the San Francisco Baking Institute and a week-long class in chocolate at the Chocolate Academy in Chicago. Both classes were Christmas presents from my sons.

                                By training I'm an engineer/computer analyst, with a BS in Computer Science from Northwestern and an MBA from Nebraska. I retired in 2016 after a 43 year career as a computer programmer, systems analyst and database manager.

                                I first learned to bake from my sister when I was about 9, helping her make bread and cinnamon rolls. But I didn't do much baking until about 24 years ago, when we got a bread machine. It took me about 6 years to outgrow the bread machine in terms of what I like to bake, these days most of my breads are kneaded in a Kitchenaid mixer.

                                About 15 years ago I started doing most of the cooking for our family, because I was telecommuting/working from home and my wife works at the University of Nebraska.

                                Last year I joined the Bread Baker's Guild of America, they have a lower membership rate for student/home bakers. I'm hoping to take some BBGA classes later this year.

                                Because of my engineering training, I'm something of an experimenter in the kitchen.

                                #10525
                                Mike Nolan
                                Keymaster

                                  I haven't bought chicken stock in years, I just cut up a chicken, throw it in the pot to simmer, add aromatics and veggies (parsnips are a must!) and in a few hours I've got 5-6 quarts of chicken stock ready to be strained, plus boiled chicken ready for chicken soup or chicken salad. Leaving out the salt is no problem.

                                  A new meat market in town can get chicken backs, but I'd have to buy a 40 pound box of them, at around 65 cents/pound. That'd make 4-8 large batches of stock, and I should be able to freeze them in 5 or 10 pound lots, ready to make the next batch. If you roast the chicken bones before simmering them, you get brown chicken stock, not usually used for soup but excellent when cooking and for sauces.

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