Non-white flour bread recipes

[BakerAunt]

Blanche--it's ok to proof the yeast with a small bit of sugar. The problem only comes in high sugar recipes, as with coffee cakes, sweet rolls, etc.

I guess the next question to ask is how long are you kneading your bread and at what speed?

Also, do you use a rest period when you are mixing? Whole grain flours, once you add liquid take a while to absorb it, so the danger is that you may add too much flour or too little liquid. You might want to give your dough about 15 minutes, after its mixed, to sit covered (I put a towel over the mixer), and then knead it.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by BakerAunt.

[Mike Nolan]

As BakerAunt says, a little sugar in the proofing water is fine, many recipes even recommend it, as it gives the yeast some sugar to feed on to help it grow. It's only when you have a dough that is very sweet (6% or more sugar relative to the flour weight) that you can start to see sugar inhibiting the yeast growth by depriving it of the water it needs. My mother-in-law always used to put a pinch of flour in the water, that accomplishes pretty much the same thing, though the starch in flour needs to be broken down before the yeast can access the sugar it needs to grow. There are enzymes in yeast that will break the starch down.

An old baker's trick is to add a little vinegar to a recipe, it helps it rise. The acid in the vinegar has the same effect as the enzymes of breaking down the starch into sugar, but is a bit faster.

Here are the steps that Jeffrey Hamelman gives in his book. (Each step is explained in great detail in the book.)

1. Scaling of ingredients
2. Mixing/Kneading
3. Primary (Bulk) Fermentation
4. Folding
5. Dividing
6. Pre-shaping
7. Bench Rest
8. Shaping
9. Final Fermentation
10. Scoring
11. Baking
12. Cooling

Several of these steps can be broken down into multiple stages. For example, it is not unusual to see a recipe that divides the primary bulk rise up into several stages, punching down or folding the dough between each bulk rise period. As I recall, Julia Child's French Baguette recipe has a rise, a punch down, a second rise, a second punch down, and then a third rise.

Different recipes (or different authors) will vary these steps quite a bit. There are some authors/recipes that recommend you fully deflate the dough before dividing it and pre-shaping it, and others that recommend you treat the dough very gently to avoid deflating it.

So, bench rest is the step that comes after you divide the dough up into individual loaves or rolls and pre-shape them and when you do the final shaping. This rest gives the dough time to relax, which helps the final shaping.

[chandos]

Thank you both for clarifying the yeast/sugar connection. I mix bread dough at low speed (2 out of 10 speeds) for 5 to 7 minutes. I have never let the dough rest but it makes sense. It sounds like BakerAunt's rest is at the beginning before kneading and Mike's is closer to the end. Should I do both? I only bake one loaf at a time so I would just let all the dough rest before shaping it into the pan? I don't divide the dough into loaves or rolls.

[Mike Nolan]

There's a step that some authors recommend called autolyse. This is is a rest during the mixing stage, usually before adding the yeast, that allows the flour to be fully hydrated, ie, absorb all the liquid.

Autolysis was encouraged by Prof. Raymond Calvel, a French baking researcher/instructor who was instrumental in re-energizing the French baking industry after World War II. His book "The Taste of Bread" is an interesting read, but it really isn't a cookbook, there are very few complete recipes in it. He spends several pages just on salt and the role it plays in bread!

The book was written in French ("Le Goût du Pain") but later translated into English. It is fairly expensive, especially in the original French edition.

The variance in steps between recipes and authors is interesting, some of them are probably more a matter of tradition or preference than science. There are baking sites on the Internet that tend to be rather fussy about them, insisting that there is only one RIGHT way to do things. We aren't like that, we don't all follow the same steps, even when making the same recipe. We're happy to share what works for us, and encourage experimentation to find what works best for you.

[BakerAunt]

I do not have a Kitchen Aid mixer. I have a Cuisinart (not made anymore). I am hoping some of the people who use the Kitchen Aid to knead wholegrain breads will jump in with their kneading wisdom.

My thought is that speed 2 is fine for mixing but too low for kneading, and that is where you need to be developing the gluten. Of course, it may depend on the age of your KA and what kind of "kneading" attachment it has.

My mixer recommends "2" for initial mixing, then four minutes at 3 for kneading, and I think that the newer KA is similar. Regular dough is kneaded when you can "pull a windowpane." That means you take a small piece of the dough--about the size of a large marble, then use your thumbs and first finger to stretch it out. You should be able to get a thin membrane through which you can see light. I find this works for me with my 50% wholegrain loaves, although not with a rye bread, which has a different texture.

I usually incorporate half the flour (and if it is wholegrain, I start with that half) using the mixer blade. I then let the dough rest for 15 minutes. I switch to the spiral bread hook (Cuisinart pioneered the style that KA now uses, which is one reason that it for a time was Cooks Illustrated top choice), incorporate the rest of the flour, then knead. You may need to experiment to find out what works best with your particular mixer.

[chandos]

Thank you BakerAunt. I have had my Kitchen Aid since 1991 and it has a dough hook that looks like the letter "J." I will use a higher speed next time. I have not heard of the windowpane and will try that, along with the resting. You all seem so comfortable with baking and experimenting. I just see "failure" when something doesn't turn out right and then don't try it again. But I like the idea of making notes and keeping records of my results.

[wonky]

Blanch...we have all had "failures" along the road to making great breads. But my thought is that it is not a failure if you learned something from it. I do have a professional Kitchen aid, and the recommendation for kneading is speed 2. My old KA, which is more than 40 years old had the "J" hook, but my new machine has the "S" hook. I really like this hook, because the dough does not crawl up the hook like my old machine. I usually knead at speed 2 for 6 to 8 minutes.

Due to limited oven capacity, I usually make two four loaf batches, and hope that they are not all ready to bake at the same time (which has happened) To avoid this, I will often have one batch in the oven, and the other 4 loaf batch in the frig to retard the rise.

If I had to choose only one tool that I would never give up, it would be a scale. Most of King Arthur recipes are now printed by weight and volume. You can also find a very good conversion chart there, so you can convert your volume recipes to weight. You will be amazed at the difference a scale makes.

Most recipe's recommend 2 rises, the initial rise after kneading, and the second rise once you bread is panned. I almost always do 2 initial rises (let your dough rise until doubled, deflate, and let it rise the second time. Portion your dough, let it bench rest for 15 minutes, shape, pan and let rise a third time in the pan. Each time you add an extra rise, your dough will develop more flavor, and will be a more tender, finer crumb. This works especially well for whole grain and partial whole grain breads.

I also add vinegar to my dough, about 2 TBS. to a four loaf batch. Lemon juice works as well. Some bakers use a crushed vitamin C tablet also.

As far as yeast, I also use IDY, added to the flour. No need to "bloom", although that works perfectly well. IDY just eliminates that step. I buy it by the pound transfer it to a freezer container. When I am baking, I take it out of the freezer, measure the correct amount, and place it back in the freezer immediately. Do not let it thaw and freeze, thaw and freeze etc.

The other thing I would recommend, is to add instant dried milk to your dough, about l/4 cup to a 2 loaf recipe.

My other recommendation is to use an instant read thermometer. It takes the guess work out of trying to determine if your loaf is properly baked. Many use the the method of thumping on your bread to determine if it is properly baked, but a thermometer speaks for itself. I usually bake my loaves to about 195 to 200 degrees. it depends on whether you like your bread a little bit more on the moist side, or a little more on the dry side. Some bakers choose to bake to 205 degrees, totally your perferance.

You have gotten some wonderful advice from some of the most experienced, wonderful bakers. We all hope you do well in your new endeavor and enjoy the fruits (or breads) of your labor. .....Wonky

[Mike Nolan]

As someone wrote a while back, keep practicing your breads, eventually you'll eat well, in the mean time the ducks will eat well. 🙂

Seriously, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Eventually you'll learn to recognize problems before they get serious and you'll know what to do to fix them.

That's what professional bakers do every day, because conditions are not the same all the time and mistakes do happen, so you need to be prepared to deal with problems.

I've had a few total disasters, one was probably due to putting in 1 1/2 teaspoons of salt, as the recipe specified, and then putting in ANOTHER 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS of salt instead of sugar! It was a brick and even the birds wouldn't touch it!

The suggestion to use an instant read thermometer is another good one, knowing when the desired internal temperature has been reached is one way to improve your success rate. Eventually you'll recognize by sight, smell or touch (thumping) when your bread is ready.

[aaronatthedoublef]

A couple more things... I once worked for a couple of phenomenal pastry chefs. We would all work in the back around a wooden table and one time a half cup of sugar sat in the middle of us. No one knew who it belonged to so the head chef picked it up and dumped it into one of our recipes. And everything was fine. All our product came out tasting good. I only worked there on Saturdays (this was not my paying job but more to learn and for fun) but I watched them experiment on a regular basis to create new things.

Some more tips - when it comes to clean a bowl you've mixed dough in, use cold water. I think this came from Mike and BA (if I'm leaving anyone out, apologies) but I remember a very long thread about it on the old KAF Bakers Circle. But it comes down to the fact that heat activates gluten and makes it harder. I now soak my bowls in cold water for a few hours (or overnight if I'm feeling lazy) then wipe them out with a paper towel and then wash them with soap and warm water.

I, too have started using an instant read thermometer to test for doneness. It has helped quite a bit.

I let my dough do its first rise in plastic roasting bags. I spray them with cooking spray and put them in bowls or buckets. I keep my used bags in a freezer bag with my yeast and when I make a new batch of dough I clean off the frozen bag. I will reuse a bag many times. But recently as I've started making rye with caraway I've noticed the bag taking on the smell of the seeds and the sour rye so I try not to use those bags for other breads that have a more neutral flavor. I'll also cover subsequent rises with the same bags. I started using them because once I was in a hurry and put some bread covered by plastic wrap into a hot oven. The roasting bags won't melt.

I'm looking to see if I can find a spiral dough hook for older KA mixers but it seems they are only available for the 7 qt size (I have 4.5 and 5 quart mixers) and it looks like it has a different locking attachment.

[BakerAunt]

Thanks for starting this thread, Blanche. I'm learning a lot from it as well.

One other possibility: You might hold back a bit of the flour until you are sure that the dough requires it.

[chandos]

Such a wealth of knowledge and experiences here, and a willingness to share ideas! You all seem comfortable with each other and are very encouraging. I will go through each post today and write down all the suggestions so that my bread tonight will be better than ever. I bought an instant read thermometer and will try that out as well. Will take notes as I go and hope to have a good report to post tonight or tomorrow!

[chandos]

First experiment is finished. I made KAF 100% whole wheat sandwich bread with a rest before kneading and before shaping into the loaf. It wasn't as dry as before, I suspect I added too much flour the last time. Instant read thermometer showed 203 degrees after 40 minutes, recipe said bake 40 to 45 minutes. I also added dry milk as was suggested.

Mike, when using the autolyse step, do you add instant dry yeast after all the other ingredients have been mixed? I wasn't sure enough to try that. I added active dry yeast with the other dry ingredients without proofing after "chatting" with a KAF baker on the hotline, and she said that would be fine.

Overall, the flavor was great and the loaf wasn't dry. But it also only had a 3 inch rise. I was hoping for more. I didn't use the proofing box, left it on the counter in the 68 degree kitchen for two hours the first time. It puffed up nicely in the first hour but not after that. Also in the pan, it rose so that the sides of the dough were even with the pan and it had a dome in the middle. But then the second hour, no more rise. I never can seem to get the sides of the dough to rise above the pan so that the bread has that ear or handle look. Not sure how to describe it, but in commercial loaves the top is wider than the bottom and then curves around. Also, I had to add over half a cup of flour when mixing/kneading and it was still sticking to my hands when I took it out, but I didn't want to add any more flour. I'll keep trying to get that nice rise so that it looks like real bread. And will try more suggestions from here and the recommended books. Thank you all for the help. Oh, and I weighed everything with the ounces conversion on the KAF site.

[BakerAunt]

Congratulations on your first experiment and report, Blanche!

One thought: The bread did not need to rise for a second hour either time. With whole grain loaves, you do not want to allow them to rise until double. I find that the KAF rise times are usually longer than what my bread requires, maybe because of different environmental conditions. If you have a good rise after the first hour, both times, then go ahead and proceed to the next step each time.

On the first rise, after an hour, poke your finger in the dough. If the indent is still there in a few minutes, then the dough is ready. If it fills in, give it more time.

[Mike Nolan]

The point to autolysis is to let the flour absorb the liquid and start to break down before the yeast is added. Some authors recommend adding salt after the autolyze step, others add it up front. Some add it as the very last ingredient during mixing. Salt absorbs water and that will produce a noticeable 'tightening' of your dough if you add it last. The challenge is you don't want to wait TOO long, or it might not get thoroughly mixed in.

I don't know that it would make much difference whether dry milk was added before or after autolysis.

Not to confuse you, but you will find some whole grain recipes that utilize a soaker or a mash, where some of the whole grain flour is mixed with water (the latter is generally heated) and left to sit overnight. Either way, the point is to soften the whole grains.

King Arthur's weight-to-dry measure conversion is on the light side compared to what some authors use. (I've even seen one that assumed a cup of flour weighed 5 1/4 ounces.) It's generally a bit easier to add flour to a dough that's too moist than to add moisture to one that's too dry. When I make a new recipe, I always assume 4 1/4 ounces per cup unless the recipe specifically states otherwise, and even then I usually hold some flour back until I see how the dough looks.

[Mike Nolan]

Blanche, did try the windowpane test? Here's a video of it: windowpane test

I usually find when dough doesn't rise as much as I expected it to, it was either under-kneaded or a bit on the dry side. That's something you kind of figure out as you make a recipe several times. Most doughs should be a little tacky but not really stick to your hands. (There are doughs that are supposed to be very sticky, but that's a lesson for another time.)

Hopefully the bread was good tasting, that's the most important part!

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