Cinnamon bread

Kristineflora
Everytime i make cinnamon bread ( KAF recipe from their book) it sinks in the middle. At first I used to add more sugar and cinnamon as some people suggested but stopped doing that because it was causing the layers to separate even with egg wash....next came the sagging middle. Its not undercooked (although that has happened several times as well...which is question no 2: what should the interior final temp be?). Can Anyone help me? Im using KAF ap flour

badge posted by: Kristineflora on January 16, 2014 at 8:06 am in Q & A
tags: Sunk

reply by: KIDPIZZA on January 16, 2014 at 8:18 am
KIDPIZZA
KRISTINEFLORA:
Good morning. Welcome to our baking club. We are sorry to learn of your baking disappointment.
Kristine, It is difficult to ascertain why you are having this problem without knowing the recipe & how you procceeded in mixing,ete. We do need the recipe. Any fix that is provided will be SPECULATION because there are about 4, reasons yeasted bread tops would sink upon removing from the oven.
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Till then enjoy the rest of the day young lady.
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~KIDPIZZA,............. INTERNAL TEMP 190/200 Degrees IS ACCEPTABLE.

reply by: kaf-sub-rius on January 16, 2014 at 12:04 pm
kaf-sub-rius
I had the same problem with this recipe. I raised the temperature of my oven by 25 degrees and, voila, problem solved.

reply by: bakeraunt on January 16, 2014 at 12:20 pm
bakeraunt
Which King Arthur cookbook are you using? There are four of them. Obviously, it is not the Cookie one, but that still leaves three.

reply by: Kristineflora on January 16, 2014 at 1:03 pm
Kristineflora
Its actually the KAF website. Here is the recipe;
dough
1/4-ounce packet "highly active" active dry yeast; or 2 1/2 teaspoons active dry yeast; or 2 1/2 teaspoons instant yeast
7/8 to 1 1/8 cups lukewarm water*
3 cups King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
3 tablespoons sugar
6 tablespoons unsalted butter, at room temperature
1/4 cup nonfat dry milk
1/2 cup instant mashed potato flakes. (*in my KAF Bakers Companion cookbook, this recipe shows only 1/4 c instant mashed potato. Not sure if that makes a big difference)
*Use the lesser amount in summer (or in a humid environment), the greater amount in winter (or in a dry climate), and somewhere in between the rest of the year, or if your house is climate controlled.
filling
FILLING
1/4 cup granulated sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons ground cinnamon
2 teaspoons King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1 large egg beaten with 1 tablespoon water, to brush on dough

reply by: bakeraunt on January 16, 2014 at 2:44 pm
bakeraunt
Here is the link:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/cinnamon-bread-recipe

Let's see what Kid Pizza says.

reply by: KIDPIZZA on January 16, 2014 at 3:24 pm
KIDPIZZA
KRISTINEFLORA:
Hello again. Thank you Kristine for the timely reply. I now recognize this recipe. About 10, days ago another poster had the same problem. I posted a fix for them...same as I am going to post for your benefit.
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The problem here is I strongly believe the doughs gluten has been compromised. It begins with the YEAST..... EXCESSIVE amount of yeast is the culprit. Also possibly the manner of mixing in your electric stand mixer. more later.
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Yeast producers among CO,2 gas & alcohol. Alcohol is acdic & if it it excessive it attacks the gluten strands & makes them POUROUS. It means the gluten is weakened & cannot provide strength or structure....hence why the subject yeasted lean bread collapes on you. Insuffcient foundation underneath.
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You didn't post the DIRECTIONS. Important in this case???? YES!!!, WHY ??? because these people who compose these recipes have a habit of employing excessive yeast in their recipes & not enough of mixing time. Mixing time is important. Does your instructions state approx 6, minutes of mixing??? Well Kristine,this leads to gluten not fully developed by the mixing. It requires a good 9 to 10, minutes of aggitation in the mixer to develop the gluten fully.
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Kristine just reduce the yeast to 1/2 packet which approx 1,1/4 oz or 1 1/4 teas of instant yeast. Salt is okay at this point. Amount of Potatoes is a non~ event.
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When you rebake this recipe come back to tell us how well you have done for yourself.
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Good luck & enjoy the rest of the day my friend.
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~KIDPIZZA.
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How am I doing Baker Aunt,??????

reply by: bakeraunt on January 17, 2014 at 2:54 pm
bakeraunt
What I like about the KAF site is that I can learn so much from other people's questions, and I always learn a lot from Kid Pizza's answers. I did not realize that too much yeast could make a bread collapse. I thought that 2 1/2 tsp. yeast was a bit much for 3 cups of flour, especially for one loaf, since a single "packet" (which I do not use) only contains 2 1/4 tsp.. I thought that too much yeast would make the bread not keep as well.

I have been looking for some single loaf recipes for a variety of breads, since when we are away on vacation, I mix by hand, and we do not use the bread up as quickly. Maybe this is why I have not found any single loaf recipes other than Dachshund Lady's Grape Nuts Bread that I like that much. I will scrutinize all recipe carefully for yeast amounts from now on.

Have a Lovely Day!
Baker Aunt

reply by: frick on January 18, 2014 at 12:15 pm
frick
Kristineflora, Another important element of turning any wheat flour into successful dough/bread is learning just WHEN that gluten is sufficiently developed. You owe it to yourself to learn what the windowpane test is & I believe that is available on one of the KAF videos which you can access by going to their Education page. You also should learn how to judge when your dough is proofed (risen) to the right degree, by pressing gently with your finger. If the indent slowly fills, it is ready for the oven. If it does not fill, the dough is over proofed & should be deflated & reshaped for an additional rising before baking.
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bakeraunt and Kristineflora, I have found a reasonable estimate for the proper amount of yeast is around 1/4 tsp to 1/2 tsp per cup of flour. The lower amount is sometimes adequate but longer rising times will be necessary. 1/2 tsp is the most I would use under any circumstances except perhaps with very sweet doughs. That said, SAF Gold would be better for those anyway.

reply by: Wonky on January 17, 2014 at 7:12 pm
Wonky
I recently read online, but cannot remember the site, that using sifted powdered sugar, with the cinnamon mixed in, will prevent the spirals from coming apart. They said to roll the dough out, mist the surface of the dough with water, apply the powdered sugar/cinnamon mixture, lightly mist again, roll the dough into a log and continue as usual. It stated that because powdered sugar contains cornstarch, it then thickens and acts like a paste and keeps the spirals from coming apart. I have not tried this method, but plan to the next time I make cinnamon bread.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on January 17, 2014 at 8:08 pm
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen
That's interesting! I'll have to try to remember to give that a try as well.
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I kind of thought the higher amount of yeast they're calling for might be intended to counteract the high sugar content. If it's overproofing perhaps giving it a bit less final rise time would help. Or try switching to the "Gold" yeast for high sugar content breads. Though that is REALLY hard to find. But reducing the yeast as KP says would cut the chances of overproofing at the end anyway, so that's sort of a non-issue at this point anyway.

reply by: Jock on January 18, 2014 at 2:33 am
Jock
I saw the powdered sugar/misting thing in an ATK recipe for what they call Cinnamon Swirl Bread. I was planning on trying it out this weekend.
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Jock

reply by: frick on January 18, 2014 at 12:23 pm
frick
I can see how the cornstarch in confectioners sugar might help. It's a hard call when you really love the flavor of brown sugar. But then a person could add a small amount of cornstarch to the brown sugar-cinnamon mixture. Butter plus the spray of water sounds like the essence of KAF's ready made cinnamon filling. Cornstarch, great idea. Thanks for the info.

reply by: Mike Nolan on January 18, 2014 at 1:42 pm
Mike Nolan
I've made a half-batch of KAF's Vermont Maple Oatmeal bread several times. (I add raisins to make it a raisin bread.) I am tempted to increase the half-batch quantities by about 25% so it fits in a 9 x 5 pan rather than an 8 x 4, though.

Now that we're down to a two-person household (our younger son has moved to California to work for Google), I'm going to be baking less often and smaller amounts when I do bake.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on January 18, 2014 at 6:53 pm
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen
Yes, trying to do it by time is OK if you get the timing down for YOUR MIXER - but all mixers do not mix the same, and really all bread doughs aren't going to be the same, either. So recognizing when the gluten has developed "enough" is the ultimate goal. That said, not all doughs need to be developed to full windowpane - in fact most shouldn't, because the gluten will continue to develop even after you stop kneading. Partial windowpane is far enough almost all the time.
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Pizza dough usually wants a full windowpane, and here is a pictorial tutorial for how to get there. Although I don't go for that much windowpane even for my pizza dough - but close. I like to let it rest and rise a bit more after I form the crust and before I top it.
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For an enriched loaf (with eggs and butter) that you intend for a sandwich loaf, to get a high fluffy product, you do need intense fast (if possible, since Kitchenaid mixers shouldn't go above speed 2 with dough in the bowl, maybe some other brands also) mixing and more yeast initially, fast rises, and pop into the oven - those benefit from full windowpane.
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You will never get a full clean windowpane from a dough with rye or whole wheat flour in it because the flour particles of whole grain flours will tear the membrane. But you can get pretty close, if (again) you're looking for a sandwich bread that is light and fluffy.
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Most other breads don't benefit from full windowpane and it could be deletorious. Croissant dough, for example, shouldn't go to full windowpane but should be intentionally underdeveloped. Here are some postings from thefreshloaf.com explaining about dough development:
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San Francisco Baking Institute Dough development part 1
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SFBI Dough development part 2
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SFBI Dough development part 3
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The nontechnical way to handle this is - if your dough develops a membrane during shaping easily, that does not tear easily, the gluten is developed "enough". If there is a significant amount of whole grain flour in the dough (like more than 10%) it will be more likely to tear some if overstretched, so don't expect the same performance out of whole grain breads. With just a little experience you will quickly discover what is "enough" and what is "too much", by sight, while shaping your dough.
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Longer mixing times in the mixer lead to oxidation of the dough which most people find unhappy making. If you feel your dough is not quite developed enough, do a stretch and fold or a couple of stretch and folds rather than putting it back in the mixer. Just google stretch and fold dough, there are a ton of youtube videos that show you how to do it; or this is my favorite explanation of how to do it. This guy uses it in his commercial bakery, so he'd BETTER know how to get it to work right, LOL!

reply by: Jock on January 19, 2014 at 6:23 pm
Jock
I made ATK's Cinnamon Swirl Bread yesterday, using the method Wonky alluded to in an earlier post. It turned out really well with a nice texture and good cinnamon flavor without being overpowering. The dough is not rolled up like a traditional cinnamon bread, rather it is braided which prevents the layers from separating when it is baked.
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Jock

reply by: Wonky on January 19, 2014 at 9:12 pm
Wonky
Jock...glad to hear it worked. I am going to try it soon, but I think I will try it the traditional way (regular swirl), and see if it holds together. Do you think the confectioners sugar made any difference taste wise? I would think it would be a little less sweet tasting?

reply by: Jock on January 20, 2014 at 1:06 pm
Jock
I don't think it was any less sweet. There is about 10% sugar in the dough! plus 1 1/2 cups of golden raisins. There is a quite lot of cinnamon in the filling - 3 TBS to 4 oz powdered sugar so I think the cinnamon was allowed to shine through without being cloyingly sweet and sticky as it is with white or brown sugars.
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I'm sure doing a conventional swirl will work just fine. It saves the braiding step which exposes the filling and makes a nice dark crust. You won't have that on yours unless you save some of the filling to sprinkle over the top of the dough after applying the egg wash. The trick to getting the filling to stay put is to spritz the dough before spreading out the cinnamon sugar and then spritzing the sugar before rolling it up.
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Jock

reply by: Wonky on January 20, 2014 at 1:35 pm
Wonky
Thanks Jock...will let you know my results as soon as I get a chance to try this method.

reply by: Jock on January 20, 2014 at 4:08 pm
Jock
I just made the most excellent French toast with left over bread. It makes really good toast too!
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Jock

reply by: Wonky on January 20, 2014 at 8:01 pm
Wonky
I love French toast with cinnamon swirl bread...and of course, lots of butter. 🙂