Non-white flour bread recipes

[chandos]

It looks as if I have some reading to look forward to this winter. Aaronatthedoublef, I use a Kitchen Aid stand mixer that was a gift 27 years ago so I don't know how much more life it has. I also use a bread proofer for the rise, set to 80 degrees. The rise in the bowl looks fine but the pan rise doesn't get very high and then doesn't rise more in the oven. One of the posters here wrote that whole wheat flour dough takes a longer time to rise so maybe I'm putting it into the oven too soon (after about an hour pan rise). I did try the KAF whole wheat recipe that you referenced, with orange juice. My loaf rose about 2.5 inches at the most, nothing like the KAF photo and comments. And there is another 100% whole wheat flour recipe on their site that I tried with equally disappointing results. (I use Red Star active dry yeast that I get at Walmart.) You and Mike mentioned going back to using a stand mixer from a bread machine. I thought that a bread machine would give better results and have thought about getting one. It seems that isn't right.

Mike thanks for sharing your history. You bring an interesting perspective to baking.

[Mike Nolan]

I definitely approach cooking with an engineering perspective. I make notes on nearly every recipe I try, often writing right in the book! When I'm trying to design a new recipe, I take more extensive notes in a lab book. (You'll find I often recommend people make notes on their recipes noting what worked and what didn't.)

A number of years back my wife gave me a recipe her mother had written for honey wheat bread. I had to adapt it quite a bit (it called for lard, among other things), but for several years it was our daily bread, and I made it at least once a week. These days we don't eat as much bread as we used to, and our younger son has moved to California, but I still make it about once a month. You can find it here: Honey Wheat Bread

I also mill my own whole wheat flour using a Nutrimill impact mill my older son gave me for Christmas about 6 years ago.

If your mixer is that old, it might be from the days when Hobart owned Kitchaid. (Look on the band around the mixer and see if it says 'Hobart' on it.) Mine is the one we got as a wedding present in 1972 and it's still working great. If so, it's a real work horse of a machine, most people think the quality of KA mixers went down after the company was sold in the early 90's, though it appears to have gone back up in the last few years. If mine died, I'd be in a quandary, because I also have the pasta maker attachment. I'd probably buy the bottom-of-the line KA mixer for things like pasta and whipping egg whites but I'd look very hard into a something like an Ankarsrum or Bosch mixer for breadmaking, or maybe even a 12 quart table-top commercial mixer, though that'd be overkill.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Mike Nolan.

[Mike Nolan]

I find one of the most important steps in making bread is the 5-15 minute bench rest between scaling/preshaping and final shaping. That makes final shaping easier and definitely makes for a higher final loaf.

Another good book is Bread by Jeffrey Hamelman. He's the lead baker at King Arthur Flour and the book is written on a level somewhere in between home baking and commercial baking, though the recipes are all sized for home baking. The chapter on the various steps to making bread is very well written.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Can't speak to bread machines as I've never used one. But Mike is right about your KitchenAid. My mother's from the early 70s is still chugging along nicely. And I have two others - one I bought myself and one that was given me as a gift. I literally smoked the one I bought myself with too large a batch of very stiff bread dough. But, after shutting it down and allowing it to cool off, it still works just fine but smells like smoke when I use it.

The gifted KA works fine too. What annoyed me about it was at the time KA was putting ratings for an amount of flour on the side of their mixers. Mine was rated at nine cups. Of course if you put that much flour in it there is little room for anything else. And KA knew this and admitted it. I try to make a recipe that will give me bread for two or three weeks plus traditional challah recipes are supposed to be about five pounds or more and I make that often. If I made bread weekly my mixer would be fine. So maybe I'll do that.

There was a brief period that KA switched out some metal gears for plastic and those machines died early and often but they've gone back to metal now.

I dream of a 12 quart mixer as well but in addition to the expense they are too big to fit under the standard kitchen cabinets. But a chef friend has promised me his 30 quart when they go to a mixer geared to bread dough so I've got that going for me.

I did not put notes in my recipes for years until my mom copied a scone recipe I was using and tried it at home. Of course her scones tasted nothing like mine because they did not have all the changes I'd made. So I wrote up the entire recipe including the alterations and sent it to her. I've been writing down my recipes ever since.

[BakerAunt]

A couple of thoughts:

1. I have a used bread machine which I bought at an estate sale for $20. I only use it for the initial mixing and the kneading when I'm doing a recipe of up to 4 1/2 cups flour (5 is pushing it). I don't even allow it to rise in the bread machine, which I think is too small and gets too warm. For my larger recipes, I use a 7-quart Cuisinart mixer. Cuisinart got out of the mixer business a year later. I can do three loaves of bread in it.

2. You mention proofing your bread at 80F. I think that is too warm. I've not used a proofing box, but when it is exceptionally cool, I move the dough to a location that will be around 70F (in my case, close to the wood stove in the front room). Some people use the top of the refrigerator. For an initial rise, I cover the greased bowl with one of those food-safe "shower caps" that KAF sells or with some flat German plastic lids. I've also used saran. For the second rise, I like to put the shaped dough in its pan into a plastic snapped box. That keeps the bread from drying out on top.

3. Be careful not to add too much flour to your dough. That was a problem that I always had when I kneaded by hand. Too much flour will make the bread more dense.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by BakerAunt.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by BakerAunt.

[Italiancook]

Blanche, Welcome!

I use SAF (I think) instant yeast sold by KAF. I keep it in a plastic container in the freezer. Blanche, I wonder if the yeast you're using is perfect for KAF recipes. The reason is because of a recent call I had with KAF Baker's Hotline. I needed to know how to convert some type of packaged yeast to the instant yeast for a recipe not from their website. It was not an exact conversion. You may want to call their Baker's Hotline (Phone: 1-855-371-2253) and ask them whether the type of yeast you use equally converts to their recipes calling for instant yeast.

[Mike Nolan]

Commercial proof boxes are usually set somewhere between 80 and 90 degrees and at 80% humidity.

Studies have shown that yeast actually grows fastest at about 102 degrees and a humid environment also encourages yeast growth because yeast needs moisture to grow.

But speed isn't necessarily the primary goal when making bread; the faster your yeast grows, the less time there is for the enzymes in your dough to act upon it, enhancing flavor. So it always comes down to a trade off between time and flavor.

In a commercial bakery, time is money, and keeping to a predictable schedule is important, it's expensive to have bakers standing around waiting for their dough to rise. Temperature, humidity and barometric pressure change from day to day, proof boxes help keep things on schedule.

[Italiancook]

Am I the only one who covers bread/roll dough with a damp towel. My dad always did that, using a kitchen towel. I do it using a flour sack towel, because it doesn't have fibers that might stick to the dough. I tried Saran Wrap once and had a terrible time stopping the Wrap from sticking to itself. I have xenon under cabinet lights, and they burn hot, so I use them as my proofing box if the house is quite cold.

I always write notes on recipes I've tried but find I don't take the time to read them before starting. I've lived to regret that more than once. I also write each family member's reaction to the recipe the first time I try it and the year. I've found that what a person doesn't like one year might fly a few years later.

[wonky]

Oh Boy...it has been a long time since I have posted, although I have lurked some. Baker Aunt, I noticed your reference to me regarding the spelt bread, and it made my day that you remembered me. Thank you for your kind words. BTW...I still have not tried working with spelt again, but I might give it another shot.

I had orders for 62 loaves of bread to be given as gifts this Christmas, which goes without saying that I was a tad busy. I still baked for my regular customers as well. I have been experimenting a lot, and have some new favorites to boast about. As many of you know, I created my own recipe, and many of my new breads are variations of that. Some of my best sellers are my new creations, that I am really proud of . One of the new favorites is pomegranate infused cranberry, and also blueberry infused cranberry. I add two eggs also to my own recipe, along with other small changes. One of them being the addition of a couple teaspoons of vanilla to a 4 loaf recipe. These breads really toast well, as the toasting caramelizes the sugar in the fruit as it heats. They are also excellent for french toast, and bread pudding, with a warm vanilla sauce.

Anyway I will try to show up here a little more often.

BTW, I speak with Cass (Kid Pizza) now and then also. He is well, and is the same Cass we all loved. He has moved to a different assisted living in Vegas, and seems to be happy there.

From the frozen tundra, AKA Wisconsin....Wonky

[Mike Nolan]

The debate over active dry yeast (ADY) vs instant yeast (IDY) is interesting. Here's some history on commercial yeast.

Compressed yeast cakes were developed in the 1800's by the Fleischmann brothers. Before that, bakers generally used sourdough or 'old dough' to seed their dough with yeast, or got liquid yeast from beer brewers.

When it was first introduced during WW II, active dry yeast always needed to be proofed in warm water, but ADY has improved over the years. Many bakers now state that they don't bother to proof their ADY, but the yeast manufacturers still recommend it.

Instant dry yeast was developed in the 1990's and does not need to be proofed, it can just be mixed in with the flour.

These days cake yeast is hard to find, I've seen it in the freezer section at the grocery store but I've also been told that freezing yeast cakes kills off a lot of the yeast. ADY and IDY can both be frozen, I've know of bakers who had IDY that had been in the freezer for five or more years and still worked fine. Large commercial bakers buy liquid yeast in 1 gallon containers, but it has a very short shelf life and isn't available to home bakers.

I generally use Fleischmann's IDY which I buy in 1 pound packages at Sams Club. In all the baking I've done, the only recipe that didn't work well with IDY was James Beard's Monkey Bread recipe, from "Beard on Bread", a classic book on bread baking and one that has been ranked as the favorite book on bread by several generations of bakers. It worked much better with ADY.

Ive got some SAF Gold osmotolerant yeast, which is designed for sweet dough recipes, but I haven't tried making Monkey Bread with it yet. Sugar is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts water, so, like salt, it can inhibit yeast growth. Recipes that have more than 6% sugar by bakers weight (eg, compared to the flour weight) are ones that can see sugar inhibit yeast growth by depriving it of the water it needs to grow.

[BakerAunt]

Hi, Wonky! It's good to see your post!

IDY and ADY are interchangeable in measurement for most recipes that we home bakers use. The folks at King Arthur said that they rarely bothered to do the conversion. As Mike points out, the big difference is that one is proofed in advance, while the other is mixed in.

One question for Blanche: Are you using the yeast that comes in those foil packets? I have found it to be problematic, and I recall that Baker Irene on the former Baking Circle also had that experience. It's best either to buy it in a jar or in bulk. I usually order mine from King Arthur, as I am far from stores. As Mike says, store it in the freezer, and you are good to go.

One further question: How do you measure your flour? Weighing is the most accurate, but I tend only to weigh if I have a recipe set up with weights. If you are using measuring cups, be sure to fluff the flour in the container, then spoon it into the measuring cup.

As you can see, we love discussing baking!

[RiversideLen]

I've been using SAF Gold for about the last 4 or 5 years for all my yeast baking needs. Haven't had any issues with it.

[Joan Simpson]

Glad to see you posting again Wonky,your breads sound wonderful!

[Mike Nolan]

These days I always weigh ingredients that are more than an ounce or so using my digital scale. When making some recipes, like the SFBI pie dough, I even weight the salt using a micro scale that weighs in tenth of a gram increments. I also have a third digital scale that weighs in milligrams.

[chandos]

Wow! There is a lot of information here to read through! I am aleady learning a lot. BakerAunt, you're not kidding about loving to discuss baking. I use the active dry yeast in a jar. When a recipe calls for packets, I use the conversion on the jar. I think it's 2.25 tsp equals one packet. And I proof it in warm water with a little sugar. But after reading the post about sugar interfering with yeast, I won't do that anymore. I also fluff up the flour and spoon it into the measuring cup. I saw that on the KAF website. Mike, what is the bench rest? I'm thinking it is after the dough has been deflated from the first rise (in the bowl) and before it goes into the pan for the second rise. Is that right? I have several of the recommended books on reserve at the libray and am anxious to get started reading and baking!

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