Getting a rise out of my bread

Home Forums Baking — Breads and Rolls Getting a rise out of my bread

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  • #10303
    aaronatthedoublef
    Participant

      Hi,

      This has been discussed quite a bit here but what can I do to increase the rise in my whole wheat and rye breads to make it at least close to store bought breads? Is there equipment I can invest in? Would using my stand mixer instead of mixing by hand help? Should I can mock up a proofing box? Are there ingredients I can add?

      Thanks

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      #10304
      BakerAunt
      Participant

        Aaron--I get a better rise when I use my stand mixer or a bread machine that I got at an estate sale for $20 and only use for kneading. I was a hold out on using a mixer for a long time, but it does give me a higher rise.

        I also recently baked the Honey Spelt Sourdough Bread from KAF. Although it uses 4 cups spelt flour and a mere 1 to 1/2 cups KAF AP, it made a wonderfully light bread. Two factors that help: it used an overnight levain, and I used an Emile Henry long covered baker. I have read that if you do not have the covered baker, you can put a large aluminum foil pan over the bread as it bakes in order to get something of the same results. I think ATK did this with some baguettes, but I saw another reference to that technique in another article as well.

        #10305
        Mike Nolan
        Keymaster

          The simple answer is no. If you've ever toured a commercial bread factory (no way you can call it a bakery), you'd know why. They have access to ingredients (including types of flour) and processes we don't. Their unbaked bread doesn't look anything like yours, why should you expect it to bake up anything like yours?

          That being said, good technique will help your doughs achieve larger volume and greater flavor. And IMHO the latter is more important than the former. Unless you really like Wonder Bread.

          Read Jeff Hamelman's book where he goes through the stages of making good bread. I find I tend to skip or minimize several steps, especially the short rest between scaling/preshaping and final shaping. The type of mixing/kneading you do also has a big impact on the final result.

          #10312
          chocomouse
          Participant

            Aaron, of course, there are a number of factors. I think most important is catching the dough at just the right point of proofing; under or over proofed is not going to work. You won't get any oven spring if the dough isn't just right. It takes years of experience to figure out just the right point, and I still get it right only about 90% of the time. Another main factor, in my opinion, is that wetter dough rises better; not too wet, but wetter than most recipes call for. Again, experience is key. I always use a bread machine, just to knead the dough. And, I always use Vital Wheat Gluten in my rye breads. Keep on playing with dough! and having fun!

            #10314
            aaronatthedoublef
            Participant

              Thanks BA, Mike, and Chocomouse. I've worked in a few smallish bakeries and one of them I even worked the overnight shift shaping bread. I would try to arrive early to see the dough makers actually make the dough. But this was far from a factory. We had two people making dough, four people and a team lead making loaves, and then the team lead would go between shaping and baking. In an eight hour shift we would make about 600 loaves of bread which always left me amazed and proud and exhausted.

              I don't want wonder but I do want something a little lighter. I have a long slow rise. First I make a starter that sits over night. Then I make the dough and let it rise in the refrigerator for 48 hours. That may be too long and it may over proof but it develops great flavor. I cannot buy anything around here that tastes like it.

              Maybe I'll talk to my old boss at the bakery. Of course he now has a much bigger operation with central baking and two retail locations as well as many wholesale customers. Interestingly he parted ways with Whole Foods which has been good for his product. It suffered trying to meet their volume demands and that was just making bread for three markets around here. They wanted him to go New England wide.

              Thanks again

              #10315
              Mike Nolan
              Keymaster

                If you ever get a chance to tour an industrial bread operation (I've done it twice), jump at the chance. It is truly eye-opening to see loaves of bread as far as the eye can see. But what you really want to watch for is how they do quality control. (And they won't generally talk about that much, for good reason, also because it's not very interesting except to another baker.)

                A commercial bakery of the size you've worked in (600 loaves/day is a fairly big shop) has access to a few ingredients (types and grades of flour, for example) that we don't really have access to at home, as well as a few pieces of equipment, like a 40 quart mixer, tightly controlled environment proofers and steam injection ovens, but I think a good home baker can do about 95% of what those bakeries can do.

                Dough behaves differently in a 40 quart mixer than at home, but mostly that's a matter of limiting over-oxidation of the dough while working it more evenly. Proofing in an 80/80 box (80% humidity at 80 degrees) is a little tricky to match at home, and there's no substitute for that steam lever, but I think I can get close enough that I'd stack some of my best efforts against any bakery in town.

                Peter Reinhart talks about the batch of bread that won his prize as being magical, and that magic is something I try to achieve every time I bake, and it really only gets magical once every few weeks.

                The bakery I would almost pay to work at for a week is Chad Robertson's Tartine Bakery in San Francisco. His books are delightful to read and his bread is out of this world on an average day and almost a religious experience on a day when the magic happens.

                Where the home baker fails is consistency. A commercial bakery HAS to be consistent, because customers demand it, but some days it's just better than others. Our families will eat what we bake for them even if we miss the mark from time to time. (Ï'm not sure my wife even notices when I slightly under-proof or over-proof dough or when the baking is just a tad short or over, though I do.)

                I've probably only thrown away loaves of bread around 20 times over the years, and some of those were experimental recipes. My wife will never forget the time I (apparently) put in 4X the salt instead of 1 part salt and 3 part sugar in an Austrian Malt bread. But to be fair, I remember the time she tried to make an angel food cake using powdered sugar instead of cake flour, and we both remember her first attempt to bake me an angel food cake 45 years ago, when neither of us knew that the lower element in the oven in our apartment wasn't working, so essentially she baked it under the broiler.

                Of all the books I have on baking bread, Hamelman's book does the best job of translating what happens in a commercial scale bakery into the home.

                What has always amazed me about small scale bakeries is the breadth of their daily output, not only do they do dozens of loaves of several types of bread every day but also several dozen types of donuts plus cookies, rolls, brownies, cakes and pies.

                When we were first married there were two incredible bakeries in Evanston Illinois, and at least one of them, Bennisons, is still there and still going strong, though under different ownership. Their lead baker is truly a master baker, and he has the Couple du Monde cup in his window to prove it. I'd stage for a week under Jory Downer at the drop of a hat, too, in fact he's the reason I joined the Bread Baker's Guild of America. Just being a member of an organization that has bakers like Jory, and Peter Reinhart and Jeff Hamelman is worth the $85 annual dues to me, though their quarterly newsletter is also worth the annual dues.

                #10322
                aaronatthedoublef
                Participant

                  Thanks Mike. If I ever do get to see a large scale bread factory I will. Hartford Baking Company (HBC) where I made bread did not have a proofing box at the time, probably because there wasn't room. It was a small location that shared space with the retail operations and we spent at least an hour and a half of each shift moving the retail gear out and the bread gear in and then setting the retail back up at the end. They did have a magnificent steam injection oven and an incredible mixer that looked like a huge Bosch style. It would make something like 75 lbs. of bread dough in five minutes. We proofed on sheet pans on bakery racks under cloth covers because that was what space would allow.

                  I'll try some of the suggestions from BA and ChocoMouse. I even have some vital wheat gluten I've never used and I have a foil baking pan I can use to cover the dough while it's proofing and/or when I put it in the oven.

                  I hate my KitchenAid for bread. Mostly it's because KitchenAid promised it would work with recipes with 9 cups of flour and it will not handle a bread dough that has more than three cups. My rye bread is too much dough so I mix it by hand. Also, there is something soothing about doing it by hand. But I usually make 3-4 lbs. of dough and that overflows the mixer.

                  I do not have any more room for appliances which is why I do not have a bread machine or a slow cooker (I would love an InstaPot). A dough machine might actually work better.

                  So maybe I'll just have to scale back my recipe. Or I have a friend with a 30 quart Hobart who would let me use it. He's offered it to me when his shop buys a new mixer.

                  Bennisons is fantastic. And seeing the actual Coupe de Monde is extraordinary. Buying doughnuts from the fellow who won it is unbelievable! There is a neat, new bread bakery in Evanston called Hewn. It is walking distance from my brother's house and is on my list the next time I am there.

                  #10325
                  BakerAunt
                  Participant

                    Aaron--I did not buy a Kitchen Aid because there had been so much negative written about their ability to handle more than a loaf of bread. While I was working, I needed to make at least two at a time, and I really liked doing three and freezing the extra. I bought a 7-quart Cuisinart (ok, I used mostly gift cards from friends when we got married), and it really does a nice job on up to three loaves of bread. I'm still not completely happy with its work on cookie dough, but I don't do a lot of large batches of cookies, so usually I stick with the hand mixer. It did ok with my large batch of sugar cookie dough yesterday.

                    On the former baking site from KAF, one of our members, pmiker, always baked 5-6 loaves at a time. [He is allergic to oats, so he needs to control what goes into his bread.] After his KA died, he got a Bosch, which, as he put it, chokes on a blueberry smoothie (blender attachment leaked into the motor). He bit the bullet at that point and bought:

                    https://pleasanthillgrain.com/ankarsrum-swedish-stand-mixer-heavy-duty-kitchen-mixer?_vsrefdom=gpnbr&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9ILHz-Wb2AIVzbjACh1OsgaxEAAYASAAEgINMPD_BwE

                    [King Arthur was also selling them before Christmas for the same price.]

                    There was a learning curve, but Mike was very happy with the mixer for bread.

                    The downside is that it is expensive. So, maybe hold out for that Hobart!

                    • This reply was modified 7 years ago by BakerAunt.
                    #10355
                    Mike Nolan
                    Keymaster

                      If space and money weren't a problem (which they always are), I'd look at a 12 quart mixer, but I doubt I'd use it very much, these days a full batch of Double Crusty Bread or Challah is about as much dough as I make at one time.

                      #10360
                      skeptic7
                      Participant

                        The Hobart and the Electro Lux/Anaksrum would be wonderful for people with the space to keep it. I knead all my bread dough by hand and I wonder if I would bake more if I didn't have to spend the time and effort taken up by hand kneading. As it is I mainly do quick breads. I am now baking mainly all whole wheat breads and the best cookbooks I found for that is Laurel's Kitchen's bread book and Peter Reinhart's Whole grain baking.
                        Judging by the comments above you are already way past my skill level. I found it makes a difference to scald the milk and not to over proof and to knead thoroughly but thats about all the advice I have to offer.

                        #10364
                        cwcdesign
                        Participant

                          Aaron, I beg to differ - you are way beyond my skill set with all your hand kneading. It is where I always fell short. That, and having trouble getting the water temp right for proofing. I came to baking bread after I got my KA artisan 5 quart mixer and a thermometer. My latest acquisition, which I don’t have room for is a Zojirushi for mixing my dough. When King Arthur had their sale in early November, I splurged on an early Christmas present for me. My last 2 months have been so crazy it’s still in the shipping box. I plan to give it a test run tomorrow making pan de mie for turkey sandwiches.

                          #10365
                          BakerAunt
                          Participant

                            I agree with Cwcdesign, Aaron: you already have great bread skills. There are also some breads that require less kneading than others, and those do better with hand kneading.

                            Bread machines are very nice for kneading single loaves. The larger ones can handle almost 5 cups of flour, but I'm careful not to push mine too far. For a single loaf of bread or for sweet rolls or coffee cake, it is actually less cleaning than the stand mixer. If you can get a good used one (where the mixing pan is in good condition), it's a great helper. The brand I got is not even made anymore.

                            Cwcdesign--be sure to give us a report on how the new bread machine works!

                            #10403
                            aaronatthedoublef
                            Participant

                              Thanks for everyone's kind words and advice. I am not certain my bread skills are so advanced but kneading by hand has given me a better feel for my dough. I think I've said this but I started hand mixing because I was teaching kids to make challah and they would all go home and ask their parents for a stand mixer. Then I realized I could whip up a bigger, single batch by hand than in my KitchenAid. I went from nine batches of dough down to five.

                              I wish I had room for new equipment. At some point we'll seal the basement floor and then I might be able to put some things down there. But I already have things I do not use because I would have to take them out, use them, clean them, and then put them away and I am too lazy. I grate 1.5 pounds of mozzarella by hand because 1) I do not want to by the pre-shredded mozzarella and 2) I am too lazy to use the perfectly fine Cuisinart we own.

                              Anyway, I will try building a proofing box and will try vital wheat gluten as well and maybe I'll ask some of the bakers around town. I'll let you know my results.

                              Hope everyone had a merry Christmas and that you have fantastic New Years!

                              Thanks again

                              #10408
                              BakerAunt
                              Participant

                                I thought of you today Aaron while reading a ATK recipe in one of their Holiday Baking magazines (which year by year repeat most of the same recipes, sigh) for a gooey cinnamon bread. As with all ATK articles, the author pontificated at length. He was trying to get a Japanese style bread without ordering the extra high gluten flour of his base recipe. Several points he mentioned: getting more air into the dough gives a higher rise (one reason doing it with machines helps), doing folds helps incorporated more air for a higher rise (something I've never tried), and adding butter toward the end (he suggested cutting up the butter and coating with a Tbs. or so of the flour to help get it incorporated at that late stage). Butter coating the flour will inhibit gluten development. Kid Pizza told me the same about oil; however, it is not that easy to get the oil incorporated at later stages.

                                I'd be interested in knowing if others have experimented with adding butter or oil later.

                                #10414
                                skeptic7
                                Participant

                                  When I make breads with a lot of butter I tend to add it after the first rise and kneading stage. I use the method advocated in Laurel's Kitchen and smear a thick layer of butter on the kneading board, knead the dough until the butter is absorbed and then repeat the process.
                                  My steps for making rich doughs like for Hot Cross Buns is to make a sponge, then mix in all the ingredients except for the butter and fruit, Let the dough sit for at least half an hour, punch down and knead well, and then knead in the butter. Smearing the butter on the kneading board and allowing the butter to incorporate gradually is easier than trying to knead in lumps of butter. I normally don't do this with oil, its more messy. I guess it could be done by kneading in small amounts of oil at a time.

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