[aaronatthedoublef]

There are two Whole Foods (WF) in town, one with a more skilled butchery than the other. The more skilled butchers have always had bistro steaks and they are labeled as such without the teres major designation. When I was working there I tried finding it on the internet only to find recipes for how to cook steaks like in a bistro - not very useful for helping customers. My more knowledgeable colleagues told me where the cut was located and using diagrams of cattle I figured out where it was from and what it was called.

The second Whole Foods only began carrying this cut recently and they actually have it labeled "teres major" bistro steak but they do not know what the "teres major" is. The people there are good people who try to provide customer service but very few of them go home and study after work (a few in the specialty department do).

I bought roasted turkey and roast beef for my kids lunch. Now I am buying chicken breast and bistro steaks and roasting them myself. It saves some money and I have a little more control over what I am feeding them. And they do not know the difference.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I roasted a chicken. I stuck an orange in the cavity (usually I use a lemon but I didn't have any lemons) and I rubbed butter and salt on the skin.

I also made a bistro steak. Bistro is what they call the cut and not a "bistro" recipe. It's kind of confusing. It is from the teres major which is from the shoulder and sometimes called a shoulder tender. It looks a lot like a tenderloin but is a third the price. The only place I have seen it around here is Whole Foods. It's a nice, tender piece of steak that has good flavor.

I use these for dinner and then use the leftovers for lunches.

Then I made pizza for dinner. Pizza has become our standard Sunday dinner. I usually will make a big batch of dough that will last for two to three pizza nights. I make five pizzas and save some for lunches on Monday.

My wife has a ground turkey recipe for me to make tonight. I hate the texture of raw ground turkey so shaping patties will not be pleasant.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks Wonky! This is a really pretty braid and a different way to make a round challah.

The water to fruit juice ratio is too high if you're making a kosher challah but other than that it looks nice.

[aaronatthedoublef]

A couple more things... I once worked for a couple of phenomenal pastry chefs. We would all work in the back around a wooden table and one time a half cup of sugar sat in the middle of us. No one knew who it belonged to so the head chef picked it up and dumped it into one of our recipes. And everything was fine. All our product came out tasting good. I only worked there on Saturdays (this was not my paying job but more to learn and for fun) but I watched them experiment on a regular basis to create new things.

Some more tips - when it comes to clean a bowl you've mixed dough in, use cold water. I think this came from Mike and BA (if I'm leaving anyone out, apologies) but I remember a very long thread about it on the old KAF Bakers Circle. But it comes down to the fact that heat activates gluten and makes it harder. I now soak my bowls in cold water for a few hours (or overnight if I'm feeling lazy) then wipe them out with a paper towel and then wash them with soap and warm water.

I, too have started using an instant read thermometer to test for doneness. It has helped quite a bit.

I let my dough do its first rise in plastic roasting bags. I spray them with cooking spray and put them in bowls or buckets. I keep my used bags in a freezer bag with my yeast and when I make a new batch of dough I clean off the frozen bag. I will reuse a bag many times. But recently as I've started making rye with caraway I've noticed the bag taking on the smell of the seeds and the sour rye so I try not to use those bags for other breads that have a more neutral flavor. I'll also cover subsequent rises with the same bags. I started using them because once I was in a hurry and put some bread covered by plastic wrap into a hot oven. The roasting bags won't melt.

I'm looking to see if I can find a spiral dough hook for older KA mixers but it seems they are only available for the 7 qt size (I have 4.5 and 5 quart mixers) and it looks like it has a different locking attachment.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Can't speak to bread machines as I've never used one. But Mike is right about your KitchenAid. My mother's from the early 70s is still chugging along nicely. And I have two others - one I bought myself and one that was given me as a gift. I literally smoked the one I bought myself with too large a batch of very stiff bread dough. But, after shutting it down and allowing it to cool off, it still works just fine but smells like smoke when I use it.

The gifted KA works fine too. What annoyed me about it was at the time KA was putting ratings for an amount of flour on the side of their mixers. Mine was rated at nine cups. Of course if you put that much flour in it there is little room for anything else. And KA knew this and admitted it. I try to make a recipe that will give me bread for two or three weeks plus traditional challah recipes are supposed to be about five pounds or more and I make that often. If I made bread weekly my mixer would be fine. So maybe I'll do that.

There was a brief period that KA switched out some metal gears for plastic and those machines died early and often but they've gone back to metal now.

I dream of a 12 quart mixer as well but in addition to the expense they are too big to fit under the standard kitchen cabinets. But a chef friend has promised me his 30 quart when they go to a mixer geared to bread dough so I've got that going for me.

I did not put notes in my recipes for years until my mom copied a scone recipe I was using and tried it at home. Of course her scones tasted nothing like mine because they did not have all the changes I'd made. So I wrote up the entire recipe including the alterations and sent it to her. I've been writing down my recipes ever since.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Bread Baker's Apprentice" by Peter Reinhart is well worth the price even if you never use a recipe from the book. Chapter 1, "What Is It About Bread" is a great read. Mr. Reinhart's story about winning James Beard National Bread Competition and then going to bake makes this book worthwhile. I've been given it as a gift several times. Perhaps next time I will exchange it for one of his whole grain books.

Another interesting baker who has changed the way we bake is Jim Lahey. He is a commercial baker in New York and is at the front of the no-knead movement. He has some great stories of studying sculpture and going to Italy to pursue that and coming back a bread baker in his book My Bread.

Blanche, sorry if I missed it but what sort of equipment are you using? As Mike notes he outgrew his bread machine to a KitchenAid. I used to use my KitchenAid for bread but I tend to make batches that are at least four pounds of dough and my 5 quart bowl is just too small to handle it. Also I make bread a couple of times a year with some middle schoolers and I received some comments from parents whose kids wanted to buy expensive stand mixers. So I started making the dough by hand and found it easier than using my too small mixer.

Now based on comments here I may try to go back to my mixer to increase the rise of my breads. Of course that means I will need to reduce the recipe sizes.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Welcome on board. This is a great group with a wealth of knowledge.

I've only made small forays into whole grain breads. I do add whole wheat flour to pizza dough and pancakes. I also add flax meal and more recently I've started adding chickpea flour. I'm going for more fiber and more protein for my kids.

I have a list of things to try with rye bread. It has a long rise, as Mike suggests, and while my loaves are far from being door stops they are not as light as what I can buy from local bakeries. Still I have a list of things to try and I will let you know my results.

I may also start working on whole wheat because I really need to have both those breads in my repertoire. I've tried a KAF whole wheat recipe that included orange juice to tame some of the WW bitterness and that part did work well.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks all. I have not made bread with dairy in ages. The last time was one of Peter Reinhart's brioche. I've mostly been making challah and Jewish rye bread neither of which have diary, although the new trend in challah (at least here on the East Coast) is to make it with butter.

Maybe I'll cut down my recipe to fit it in the mixer and see if that helps. I also found an article on building a proofing box so I may try that too, just for kicks.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I made a non-dairy version of my mom's molasses ginger cookies to take to friends with allergies.

My four year old helped! The concept of keeping one hand dry/clean was lost on her but I think she had fun. And when we present them to our friends she will be able to proudly say she helped make them and the smile will be amazing. We also did a little bit of math practice...

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks for everyone's kind words and advice. I am not certain my bread skills are so advanced but kneading by hand has given me a better feel for my dough. I think I've said this but I started hand mixing because I was teaching kids to make challah and they would all go home and ask their parents for a stand mixer. Then I realized I could whip up a bigger, single batch by hand than in my KitchenAid. I went from nine batches of dough down to five.

I wish I had room for new equipment. At some point we'll seal the basement floor and then I might be able to put some things down there. But I already have things I do not use because I would have to take them out, use them, clean them, and then put them away and I am too lazy. I grate 1.5 pounds of mozzarella by hand because 1) I do not want to by the pre-shredded mozzarella and 2) I am too lazy to use the perfectly fine Cuisinart we own.

Anyway, I will try building a proofing box and will try vital wheat gluten as well and maybe I'll ask some of the bakers around town. I'll let you know my results.

Hope everyone had a merry Christmas and that you have fantastic New Years!

Thanks again

[aaronatthedoublef]

The other day one of my sons asked us "After saffron what is the most expensive spice?" I answered "if it's considered a spice then vanilla".

Which, of course, was the answer... I've never thought of vanilla as a spice.

BTW, I cannot find the original item where Baker Aunt talked about vanilla in shortbread but I have vanilla in mine. I checked Jamie Oliver's "Cooking with Jamie" which is the closest thing I have to a Scottish cookbook (I bought it at a book store in Scotland) and Mr. Oliver DOES NOT USE vanilla. So maybe I will take it out of mine.

He does use semolina or corn flour.

• This reply was modified 7 years ago by aaronatthedoublef.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks Mike. If I ever do get to see a large scale bread factory I will. Hartford Baking Company (HBC) where I made bread did not have a proofing box at the time, probably because there wasn't room. It was a small location that shared space with the retail operations and we spent at least an hour and a half of each shift moving the retail gear out and the bread gear in and then setting the retail back up at the end. They did have a magnificent steam injection oven and an incredible mixer that looked like a huge Bosch style. It would make something like 75 lbs. of bread dough in five minutes. We proofed on sheet pans on bakery racks under cloth covers because that was what space would allow.

I'll try some of the suggestions from BA and ChocoMouse. I even have some vital wheat gluten I've never used and I have a foil baking pan I can use to cover the dough while it's proofing and/or when I put it in the oven.

I hate my KitchenAid for bread. Mostly it's because KitchenAid promised it would work with recipes with 9 cups of flour and it will not handle a bread dough that has more than three cups. My rye bread is too much dough so I mix it by hand. Also, there is something soothing about doing it by hand. But I usually make 3-4 lbs. of dough and that overflows the mixer.

I do not have any more room for appliances which is why I do not have a bread machine or a slow cooker (I would love an InstaPot). A dough machine might actually work better.

So maybe I'll just have to scale back my recipe. Or I have a friend with a 30 quart Hobart who would let me use it. He's offered it to me when his shop buys a new mixer.

Bennisons is fantastic. And seeing the actual Coupe de Monde is extraordinary. Buying doughnuts from the fellow who won it is unbelievable! There is a neat, new bread bakery in Evanston called Hewn. It is walking distance from my brother's house and is on my list the next time I am there.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks BA, Mike, and Chocomouse. I've worked in a few smallish bakeries and one of them I even worked the overnight shift shaping bread. I would try to arrive early to see the dough makers actually make the dough. But this was far from a factory. We had two people making dough, four people and a team lead making loaves, and then the team lead would go between shaping and baking. In an eight hour shift we would make about 600 loaves of bread which always left me amazed and proud and exhausted.

I don't want wonder but I do want something a little lighter. I have a long slow rise. First I make a starter that sits over night. Then I make the dough and let it rise in the refrigerator for 48 hours. That may be too long and it may over proof but it develops great flavor. I cannot buy anything around here that tastes like it.

Maybe I'll talk to my old boss at the bakery. Of course he now has a much bigger operation with central baking and two retail locations as well as many wholesale customers. Interestingly he parted ways with Whole Foods which has been good for his product. It suffered trying to meet their volume demands and that was just making bread for three markets around here. They wanted him to go New England wide.

Thanks again

[aaronatthedoublef]

Sorry... One more link of Clandestine Cake Club Christmas cakes from their members...

[aaronatthedoublef]

Happy birthday to Mrs. Nolan!

I made doughnuts for Chanukah. I realized how long it has been since I made them when my four year old said I had never made them before. I made the KAF chocolate baked doughnuts. I usually use half butter and half oil but I made them all butter this year although oil would have been more appropriate for Hanukah. KAF has modified the recipe for half butter and half oil. The copy I downloaded years ago is one or the other.

KAF also has an interesting jelly doughnut recipe. It looks like pate choux that you fry instead of bake. And fried jelly doughnuts are the real Hanukah tradition, not baked chocolate ones. But no one complained.

I'll make my mom's molasses cookies and some meringues this week.

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