Sponge vs Dough

[aaronatthedoublef]

Hi - any tips on the difference between making a whole batch of bread dough and letting it rise for 24 hours as compared to making a sponge, allowing it to rise for 24 hours and then mixing it with flour and water to make the dough?

Thanks

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[Mike Nolan]

Some sources claim that after 24-48 hours (at room temperature presumably), the yeast will have used up most of the available sugars and that limits the amount of rise in the final proof and during baking.

I'm not sure if that's scientifically accurate, but I did notice when working with Peter Reinhart's baguette dough for the testing of his 'Artisan' book, where the dough was made and then cold-retarded for multiple days, that the bread was not quite as airy after day 2. It also had more of a sourdough texture and taste to it.

I think dough that doesn't rise quite as much is a good thing for pizza dough, where you want some density to the crust, so that it gets crunchy, I"m not so sure it's a good thing for a loaf of bread.

The usual rule of thumb is that a sponge should use no more than 40-50% of the total weight of flour in the final dough

[skeptic7]

I find that its possible to overferment a whole wheat dough so that it doesn't have a final rise but just sorts of sits limply in a pan.
Are you keeping the dough in the refrigerator or at room temperature? I've kept doughs refrigerated for 24 hours, but at room temperature it will rise too much and tear the gluten, or use up all the sugar so it doesn't have energy for the final rise.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I guess I didn't phrase the question right. I understand not letting the yeast lose all its rise on the first rise so let me rephrase this.

I have two recipes - one prepares the dough and calls for a first rise that is 18-24 hours at room temp.

The second calls a for a sponge for with an a rise between 2 and 8 hours at room temp then making the dough from the sponge and more flour and water.

I like the sponge recipe better but any guesses as to what would happen if I just made the whole thing and gave it a long rise at room temp without letting it go so long it doesn't have a second rise?

Thanks

[Mike Nolan]

A few years ago I made a baguette recipe and let it rise in 60-90 minute increments, followed by a punch down and short knead to degas the dough and move the yeast around a bit. After 6 rises, it was still going pretty strong. So I've never really bought into the 'running out of oomph' theory of yeast activity. Flour is about 80% starch, and starch is a polysaccharide (ie, made from sugars) waiting for enzyme activity to turn it into something yeast can digest.

I'm not sure that answers your question, the only way to know for sure which you prefer is probably to schedule doing a batch each way so that they both come out of the oven at around the same time. I've done that a few times when I was testing ideas.

In my experience if you let the entire dough batch rise for 12 hours or longer, it begins to take on some of the characteristics of a sourdough bread. Most of the time, that's probably a good thing.

I've learned the hard way that my family and my wife's office don't provide much feedback with comparison taste tests, though. My hunch is you might not be able to detect enough difference to declare a clear winner.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks Mike. It was interesting. I let the sponge rise for 24 hours and then mixed in the rest of the flour and water. It needed more water than called for with an 8 hour rise so I know that.

To your point about moving things around, it did not have much of a first rise but after flattening it, stretching it, and shaping it the dough had a good second rise and a really good oven spring and gave me a nice, high loaf.

The only one in the family who likes rye is my oldest and he noticed a difference between the 8 and 24 hour versions. I intend to expand my test subjects with my next batches.

[Mike Nolan]

The semolina bread recipe I've been tinkering with uses both a soaker and a sponge. If I let the soaker go more than 12 hours, it really needs more water than the recipe calls for. Not sure where the water goes, it may be a combination of evaporation and absorption.

[Mike Nolan]

When I vary a recipe, I notice differences as well, I'm just not a great judge of comparing how TODAY'S bread is compared to one I made and ate several days ago. Over the years I've probably done 8-10 side-by-side comparisons. I have to have an up-front plan for what to do with all that baked product, though.

[Mike Nolan]

Another factor to consider, rye bread isn't supposed to be the star of the show in a deli sandwich. It needs to support or complement the rest of the ingredients, not overwhelm them.

I'm reminded of an episode of M*A*S*H with Robert Alda, father of Alan Alda. They're eating cheese while driving a truck to a new location. Robert Alda dunks the cheese in some mustard. Alan Alda says all he can taste now is the mustard. Robert Alda says, "But it's really great mustard, isn't it!".

[aaronatthedoublef]

The bread is not the star but have you ever had a corned beef sandwich on wimpy, tasteless rye. My goal is to find the happy medium.

[Mike Nolan]

Aaron, I'm not sure if you're a BBGA member, but they have a pop-up class in rye breads in New Jersey September 15-16. (They had one in Portland Oregon last March that was a big hit.)

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks Mike. I am not a BBGA member although it may be a worthwhile investment at this point. And you're right about side-by-side comparisons. I just haven't had the time or the space to make and store multiple doughs at once.

[Mike Nolan]

Generally speaking, the BBGA activities seem to be concentrated on the east coast and west coast, but that also seems to be where the bulk of their membership is.

The latest WheatStalk conference (every 3-4 years) was initially announced to be in the Chicago area this September but has apparently been rescheduled for next winter in Charlotte.

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