Big loaf of challah…

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Big loaf of challah...

aaronatthedoublef

Hi,

Here is my recipe:

Wet:
• 1 cup warm water
• ¾ cup apple cider
• ½ cup honey
• ½ cup vegetable oil
• 3 eggs

Dry:
• 6 - 7½ cups bread flour
• 2 tablespoons instant dry yeast
• 2¾ tsp. Salt (optional)

I am making test loaves of challah in prep for my son's bar mitzvah.

I made a three pound, 6 strand loaf challah. It's the biggest loaf I've ever made. I let it do its second rise for about 3.5 hours (my wife decided to send me on some errands with our 2 year old during the second rise and it took a little longer than normal). But the dough was a bit cooler than room temp because it had been in the refrigerator before I made the loaf.

I baked this on the middle rack of the oven at 350 degrees for 25 minutes. I baked it on a sheet pan on parchment and let it cool on that after I removed it from the oven. The outside was nice a brown and shiny and the internal temp was 125 degrees.

But the very bottom of the loaf looks a little squished and unbaked.

Do I need to bake this longer (I'll need to tent the top if I do).

Do I move this from the sheet pan to a rack (never done that before).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I need to get this right and I figure I'll need to make any even bigger loaf for the actual event.

Thanks

badge posted by: aaronatthedoublef on March 05, 2016 at 2:45 pm in General discussions

tags: Baking, yeast, bread yeast unbaked challah

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reply by: RonB on March 05, 2016 at 4:22 pm

RonB

The experts will chime in, I'm sure, but that does sound like an awful short amount of time to me. I checked several challah recipes. None were as large as yours and the total time for each was 40+ minutes. One said to tent the bread at 20 minutes ~ Ron

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 05, 2016 at 4:30 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks Ron. I usually bake smaller loaves (about 1 pound) for 25-30 minutes. It did seem fast to me but the internal temp was 125 which seems like it should be enough. Maybe not for an enriched bread like this.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 05, 2016 at 5:56 pm

Mike Nolan

I did a double-layer celebration wreath once, it was over 14 inches in diameter and took a double batch of dough, which was somewhere in excess of 4 pounds of dough, as I recall, and it baked for about 45 minutes. You want it to be golden brown down in the crevices. I'd probably tent it if the surfaces were getting too dark.
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I wouldn't bother trying to take it off the baking sheet.
.
I shoot for an internal temperature of 195-200 (F) degrees with Challah.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 05, 2016 at 7:29 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks Mike. My recipe makes between 4 and 4.5 pounds. I'm not sure how much I'll need for 75 people.

From your numbers my internal temp was too low so I'll have that for next week and I'll increase the baking time.

I checked a bunch of recipes and most had a baking temp of 350 but a couple had 375 so I'll test that if a longer baking time and increasing internal temp don't work. I don't want to change too many things at once.

It was golden brown in the crevices so I will tent it when that happens and thanks for the advice on not moving it off the baking sheet.

Thanks for the help!

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 05, 2016 at 8:00 pm

Mike Nolan

I'd figure at least pound of Challah (after baking) for every 10 people, more than that if they're big bread eaters. If people rip pieces off the loaves rather than have it served already sliced, raise that estimate. It also depends on what else you're serving, are you serving anything with a sauce that can be sopped up with the Challah? If so, raise the estimate.
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The bread will lose about 20% of its weight during baking, so take that into account.
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The good thing about Challah is that leftover bread can be dried and used to make the best French toast you'll ever have!

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 05, 2016 at 8:12 pm

Mike Nolan

Back in 2011 I had posted a picture of a somewhat lopsided two-layer 'Celebration' Challah made with Peter Reinhart's recipe in BBA, which makes around 2 pounds of dough, but the picture seems to have disappeared from the thread. I'll see if I can find it in my photo archives and post it on my site.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 05, 2016 at 8:25 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks. My son and wife were saying the loaf I made was big enough but I didn't think so. I was figuring more like eight pounds. I haven't decided on the shape yet. I'll be testing those out over the next month or so.

The motzi and kiddish will be right before the lunch/party so people may eat less because of that. My son who has been to bar mitzvahs says the kids in the front grab most of the challah and those at the back pick from what is left over. He said if I make a bigger loaf the kids in the front will just take more and it won't actually feed more people. 🙂

I took a few pictures of the loaf and the structural problem. I wish we could post pictures with these discussions.

Thanks again

reply by: cwcdesign on March 05, 2016 at 8:40 pm

cwcdesign

You can post pictures in a thread. The 2 people who do it the most/best are dachshundlady and RonB. There are others who are pretty talented at it as well. Hopefully one of them will chime in with the instructions
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I decided to search for a discussion - found one from way back when. Don't know if the specifications have changed since then
http://community.kingarthurflour.com/content/photos-discussion-posts

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 05, 2016 at 9:37 pm

Mike Nolan

Yeah, that sounds like the Bar Mitzvah's I've been to, too. (One of them was a catered affair at one of Chicago's best restaurants, we literally lost track of how many courses were served! They were just starting to bring out the petit fours as we were leaving.)
.
Here's a two layer Celebration Challah (two three-stranded braids) I made back in 2011, this started out as about two pounds of dough and the loaf is around 11 inches long. I had posted this in a thread back in 2011, but the file must have been moved or deleted on my site after that, because that thread no longer brings up any pictures.
.

The way to do this is as follows:

:left angle bracket: img src=URL-goes-here :right angle bracket:
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What I would do is put out HALF of the Challah to start, and bring the rest out later on.
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The love of good bread is not an ethnic trait, I made Brazilian Cheese Rolls (Pao de Queijo) for the Lincoln Brazilian-American Friendship Picnic a couple of times, the second time I made a TRIPLE batch (over 120 of them), and they still were gone before everybody got through the line the first time around. Folks were grabbing 2 or 3 each.
.
This thread is making me hungry for a good Challah!

reply by: RonB on March 05, 2016 at 9:40 pm

RonB

A07Y0364

As far as I know, you need to have your photos hosted somewhere on the web. Flickr,Photobucket, and other sites allow you to host photos for free, so here's the way to get them here:
.
1- Post the photo to one of these sites.
2- Look for something that sez "share" - it may be a symbol too. (Flickr uses a curved arrow.) At any rate, each site will have the info on how to post a photo from their site.
3- When you get to the page that allows sharing, there will be some code - possibly 2 or three codes.
4- Highlight the correct code, (it may say "Embed" or "Embeded", or "HTML code"). If you are not sure, do a test post and highlight each possibility and copy to your post. Only one should work, so use that code.
.
In simple terms, post photo to a site, copy the code, and paste the code in your BC post.
Ron

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 05, 2016 at 9:46 pm

Mike Nolan

It's possible to do it by uploading your photos to your KAF personal page, but trickier, and they won't let you upload an image above some size. But since I have my own website(s), it's no problem for me to just put them there.
.
The BC has limited support for the 'width=' and 'height=' tokens in the IMG command, but if you make the graphic too wide the page formatting can get messed up. A good upper limit appears to be 400 pixels wide. I usually resize the graphic on my site, where I have good tools for that.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 06, 2016 at 12:04 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks CWC and Ron. My photos go right to OneDrive so I'll see if I can bring some in from there. If not I'll move them to some place else.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 06, 2016 at 12:07 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Okay. Thanks. And thanks for the pretty picture of the challah. My six strand started nice and then ended ugly. Plus I'm thinking a six strand made of two three will give it more contrast and depth so that is my project for this week.

And the son who told me three pounds is enough has already eaten about a pound and a half and he has barely been home the last two days!

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 06, 2016 at 7:16 pm

Mike Nolan

The Celebration Challah that I do has a total of 6 strands, 3 large strands for the bottom and 3 smaller strands for the top. I take the total weight of the dough, divide by 9 and make 3 strands that are 2/9ths each and 3 strands that are 1/9th each. That's why I keep a calculator next to the scale in the baking area.
.
That picture in this thread doesn't show how lopsided the loaf was, it sort of blew out on one side of the bottom layer and pushed the top sideways. From the angle I posted here it looked great, from the reverse angle, not so great.
.
I've tried 4 and 5 strand braids, but never a 6 strand braid. Somehow the 4 and 5 strand ones never look as nice as the ones in the books, makes me wonder how many loaves the author had to make to get that one picture-perfect one! I keep threatening to get a bunch of thick macrame yarn and practice various braids with it.
.
Aaron, does the apple cider give the bread an apple flavor?

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 07, 2016 at 1:17 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Mike the apple cider gives it a more subtle, deeper sweetness that makes people ask me what is in my challah. It combines nicely with the honey. It doesn't give it a strong apple flavor because there isn't enough. And I use less than half apple cider for my liquid because I read some kosher site that said using more than 50% fruit juice makes it cake not bread.

This week I'm going to try a three and three like yours so thanks for your proportions.

I've made 3, 4, and this was my first strand. When I was making it every week I started to get decent at 3 and 4. Then I started braiding it and putting the braid in a loaf pan so I would have a braided loaf.

The first class I ever taught I lucked out and when I demonstrated how to braid challah it was one of the prettiest loaves I've ever made. Some times you just get lucky.

reply by: frick on March 07, 2016 at 5:15 pm

frick

Aaron, I'm not much of a challah baker, but now you have me wanting to make one, or some other bread with apple cider instead of other liquid. It sounds delicious. I do wonder why you don't make two very large challahs instead of trying to make one so gigantic. Especially since getting it done through to the bottom without excessive browning is such an issue. I'll email Robin to get her to chime in. She makes challah weekly but I don't know if she has made them in such a large size.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 08, 2016 at 1:54 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Hi Frick,

I'm glad my recipe has tempted you! My work is done here. 😉

And I always welcome advice. Robin already advised me to use the KAF no-knead recipe when I teach challah classes so I will work on that when this project is done.

Traditionally on Saturday mornings we have one challah. Friday nights call for two (although most families I know only have one) to remind us of when we wandered in the desert and God gave us a double portion of mana on the Sabbath. So everything is symbolic and there are many, many rules. I use less than 50% apple cider because there is a rule that if over 50% of the liquid is fruit juice then the final product is cake not bread. No one has yet been able to clarify for me if using oil and honey count as liquid...

And tenting it isn't a big deal. Looking at my notes, even when I make one pound loaves I sometimes have to tent it. The egg wash makes it brown up pretty quickly. I usually use one egg with a TBL of water.

So I'll go for a four or five pound challah and this week I am going to test the technique Mike described with the smaller three strands on top of the larger three strands and I'll tent it and get the internal temp up to 190-200.

The bar mitzvah is in May so I have a little while to sort this all out.

Thanks

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 08, 2016 at 4:01 pm

Mike Nolan

This site says that the majority of the liquid must be from these: water, wine, milk, bee honey and olive oil:
http://www.secretofchallah.com/50708/When-to-separate-challah
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Other sources might offer different opinions, of course. Some of the specialty braids on that site are really interesting, and the book has even more braids.

reply by: robinwaban on March 08, 2016 at 7:58 pm

robinwaban

Ok, I'll put in my 2 cents fo what it's worth. First of all, Aaron, good for you for making the challah for your son's Bar Mitzvah. I come from a Conservative synagogue, and can't bring anything into the synagogue that doesn't have a Kosher hechsher, or blessing. Many recipes call for 5 pounds of flour to make a spiritual challah, but I never use that much because I'm not so religious. There are SO many recipes available. I think I've made about 50 different variations. I have never made a challah with milk, so I won't even touch upon that. I think oil works best. And honey. A poolish, or pre ferment gives more flavor, but really not necessary. I haven't used apple cider vinegar, but have made a challah from a friend's recipe with straight vinegar. Very good. If you can use the "gold" yeast I'd do so. But mostly, I think stacking two challah so may give you a very pretty result if a 6 strand challah is too difficult. After you braid your challah do an egg wash, and again before you are ready to put it in the oven. You get a beautiful shine this way. Good luck and mazal tov!

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 09, 2016 at 9:31 am

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks Mike!

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 09, 2016 at 9:51 am

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks Robin.

We belong to a reform congregation and we're kosher style... No shell fish or pork and when we make sandwiches we use kosher meats and put in a wrapped piece of cheese but do not actually put the meat on the cheese in the sandwich. It cracks me up!

The chef at the caterer is a friend of ours and has eaten my baked goods. I even made some things for him for some dinners he does every summer. He decided I would make the challah and my wife and son agreed. I am not sure I would have chosen to do this...

I know about the five pound limit. My recipe usually comes out to about 4.25-4.5... I can add a little more liquid and do some hand kneading because I'm already straining my mixer to its limits. Or I can just make two batches of dough and that will give me 8+ pounds to work with.

I've never used vinegar. I just use apple cider. I can switch to the gold yeast although I usually use red. That's a relatively simple change. I'm a little too nervous to try too many different things because even while May seems a long way away I lose one week to spring break and then another week to Passover so time is short and I want to focus on making a challah I know look nice for the Motzi/Kiddush.

But you've given me a lot to try.

Thanks

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 09, 2016 at 12:50 pm

Mike Nolan

I've got a Challah in first bulk rise this morning, using Peter Reinhart's recipe from BBA. (I didn't have any apple cider on hand.) This recipe makes about 2 pounds of dough at a time, but it wouldn't be hard to make 3 or even 4 batches back-to-back-to-back. And Challah freezes very well.
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I'm guessing that vegetable oil would be included with the fruit juice. Your story about including a wrapped slice of cheese with a sandwich so it didn't touch the meat reminds me of some of the stories my brother used to tell about the year he worked in the kitchen at a mostly Jewish country club in the Chicago area. Orthodox they were not!

reply by: robinwaban on March 09, 2016 at 7:17 pm

robinwaban

Haha! Hilarious about the cheese! If you're on Pinterest you can look up my challah board. I try to save m Internet recipes there. I think I'm Robinwaban there as well.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 09, 2016 at 7:38 pm

Mike Nolan

FWIW, the two-layer Challah I made today is baked at a lower temperature (325 instead of 350) and it took over 50 minutes to bake. Peter specifies an internal temperature of at least 190 degrees, I prefer 200.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 10, 2016 at 12:27 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks. My internal temp was DEFINITELY too low.

Does anyone have a master list of temps? I know there can be lots of variables.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 10, 2016 at 1:05 pm

Mike Nolan

I've never seen a master list, it really depends so much on the ingredients.
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Lean doughs (think baguettes) can go as high as 205. I think 'enriched' doughs can go to a lower temperature.
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Personally, I find anything that hasn't gotten to a solid 200 to be almost underbaked. Yesterday's Challah actually got to 205 (I got distracted by a crisis at work and missed hearing the 2nd timer), it actually baked for about 60 minutes. The crust is a bit thick, but it has a nice color and crunch and the inside was definitely fully baked.
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If there are fillings in the bread (meat, fruit, cheese, etc) those can fool the thermometer.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 25, 2016 at 6:12 pm

aaronatthedoublef

S

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 25, 2016 at 6:12 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Here is my 4 lb 3 oz 3x3 braid challah from the good side:

And the bad side...

Need to figure out how to make it not flop...

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 25, 2016 at 6:49 pm

Mike Nolan

The most recent batch (2 weeks ago) I took a small rolling pin and made a dimple in the center of the lower layer before putting the upper layer on top of it. That helped some. It seems the larger the Challah, the more likely it is to blow out or collapse to one side.
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I also baked this one with the loaf going from front to back in the oven, I'm not sure that helped, but it probably didn't make things worse.
.

.
I took some pictures (to test out my new photo backdrop area), but had already sliced several pieces off, so I don't have a picture of the whole loaf. I'm still fiddling with the lighting setup, I may get an umbrella light.
.
It made great sandwiches and we got two batches of French toast from it. Figured out that we need 1 egg per slice of bread.

reply by: robinwaban on March 26, 2016 at 10:49 am

robinwaban

Aaron and Mike- fabulous results! And did check back on the recipe I thought had plain vinegar and it did have apple cider vinegar as yours did. I have made so many challah recipes, but my favorite is the KAF 4 strand challah. I actually make it into 2 3 strand loaves. Savier magazine has a terrific recipe for challah rolls. I freeze them and just use 2 weekly so my husband and I aren't tempted to eat too much. It's amazingly rude how kids will grab a challah at these events without any regard to leaving something for other. I think a smart person should cut it after the blessing.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 26, 2016 at 4:55 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Mike,

I think baking the long way would definitely have helped if for no other reason than because part of what made the bread fall over was me putting the tent over it . I think if I'd pulled it over the long way instead that would have helped.

I also think I need to turn it and tent it a little sooner.

Robin,

I use apple cider not apple cider vinegar. It's a very nice, subtle flavor and a little added sweetness. I started doing it for the high holy days and just kept it for Shabbat.

I agree that the kids pawing at the challah is less than ideal and they should know better. But some of the behavior exhibited by kids at b'nai mitzvahs (at least in our congregation) is shocking. We've resorted to placing extra adult chaperons in the services.

And, let's face it, the challah is supposed to be torn - not the way the kids do it but it is supposed to be torn and passed and shared. I will try to figure out some way to keep it civilized at my son's upcoming bar mitzvah.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 26, 2016 at 5:18 pm

Mike Nolan

If it wasn't for the fact that it would be a LOT more work, I'd suggest making 25-30 small loaves, designed to be torn into 3-4 pieces, instead of a few large ones.
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I once made a 14" two-layer wreath, it made a great (and edible) centerpiece.
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What temperature do you bake at? I did not need to tent the one I baked 2 weeks ago, and I even managed to forget it was in the oven so it baked for nearly 60 minutes when I was planning to take it out at about 50 minutes.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 27, 2016 at 8:41 am

aaronatthedoublef

Hmmm. I baked it at 350 on the middle shelf. This is directly in front of the fan so I'm thinking if I put it on a lower shelf I might not need to tent it so soon.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 27, 2016 at 11:50 am

Mike Nolan

Fan? Is this a convection oven? If so, you probably need to drop the temp another 25 degrees.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 27, 2016 at 2:36 pm

aaronatthedoublef

It is a gas oven with a convection mode when the fan is running all the time. In regular mode (which is what I used) the fan kicks on when the temp drops below what I've set and then goes off when the oven comes back up to temp.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 27, 2016 at 3:54 pm

Mike Nolan

Yeah, then I'd suggest trying a test with the temperature 15-25 degrees lower. I think that'll take care of the really heavy browning without tenting.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 28, 2016 at 1:23 pm

aaronatthedoublef

I'll try again next Friday and let you know.

Thanks!

reply by: robinwaban on March 28, 2016 at 10:21 pm

robinwaban

The reason for the tearing is because the use of a knife represents an implement of war. An adult should tear the pieces and pass them out. The 2 large challahs should suffice. I guarantee if you don't allow the kids to destroy the challah they will not abuse their portion.

reply by: Mike Nolan on March 28, 2016 at 10:46 pm

Mike Nolan

I really appreciate all the information about challah traditions, Robin.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on March 29, 2016 at 1:34 pm

aaronatthedoublef

First, yes, Robin, the adults should tear it. What I like is when whomever says the blessing tears off a piece that is passed and torn into smaller pieces.

Thanks for the tearing wisdom Robin. I had never heard that. So I went in search of tearing challah and like most things Jewish there are multiple answers from multiple people.

Chabad House actually says we are to slice the challah and on Shabbat make a small slice before we say the blessing over the bread. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/921730/jewish/Scratch-Your... It seems our tables take the place of The Temple and we use a knife as was used by the priests when making a sacrifice.

The Straight Dope has Robin's explanation for tearing http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1645/whats-the-origin-of-the-je.... But this soft of does not make sense to me as we used our hands for war and violence long before we had knives... But that's just me.

Then there was the woman who found the one flaw in her husband was that he was a slicer while she believed in tearing. She like that even their two year old could tear off a piece but had no biblical or Talmudic reasoning for her preference - just that it was tearing is accessible to the whole family. http://www.kveller.com/friday-night-the-great-challah-debate/

And of course there are discussions of differences between Ashkenazic vs. Sephardic (eastern European vs. Mediterranean) Jews. And everyone always leaves out the Roman Jews who are neither but that is another story...

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on April 03, 2016 at 6:18 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Okay... Here is this week's challah. It is bigger than last weeks - about an extra half pound.

I turned the oven down to about 315 from 350 and I baked it about 60 minutes or so until it was about 190 degrees.

I tried tapering the strands of the bottom loaf more but I didn't like the way that turned out.

I creased the middle as Mike suggested and nothing slid to the side. I also tented it front to back instead of one side to the other. Plus I baked it longs ways in the oven and on each side.

I think I need to make the top loaf a little smaller and I think I will need to go to a full size baking sheet as this was sort of squished in diagonally on my half sheet.

Any way this is my last challah for a few weeks as we're going away and then there is Passover.

Thanks Mike and Robin.

reply by: RonB on April 03, 2016 at 7:04 pm

RonB

It's a good looking loaf Aaron ~ Ron

reply by: Mike Nolan on April 03, 2016 at 8:36 pm

Mike Nolan

I bake mine on a 16 x 22 sheet pan. (Some suppliers call this a 2/3 size, others call this a 3/4 size, which is what it is, mathematically.)
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My big oven will actually hold a full sized sheet pan (18 x 26), but just barely and I'm not sure heat circulates properly with that big a pan in the oven. Some years ago I looked into having some custom cookie sheets made that were 17 x 24 (and some that were 17 x 8 1/2 for the small oven) but that was before I found the 16x22 pans at a restaurant supply store.
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Your latest photo looks pretty good. I wonder if the apple juice and honey in your recipe makes the dough sweeter than the recipe I use (in BBA) and that's why it browns so much more than mine? I may have to try your recipe next time.

reply by: aaronatthedoublef on April 04, 2016 at 1:49 pm

aaronatthedoublef

Thanks Ron. Thanks Mike.

My wife says that if it does not look nice people will know I did this. But the chef for the caterer (a friend and supporter of my baking) gave me this task and I want it to look right.

Thanks for the tip on the 3/4 pan. I'll look for one of those. Our oven can take a full size sheet pan but if I want to bake this the long way front to back in the oven there is no way a full size will fit.

I pulled out my BBA and my challah has way more sugar and you're right, it's at least partly probably the sugar caramelizing.

Also, looking at the egg wash BBA uses two egg whites which is cool because it uses the two whites left over from the two yolks in the recipe. My egg wash was a whole egg and a TBL of half and half (we had some extra hanging out in the refrigerator). I do not remember why but I've been told whole eggs brown faster than just the whites. I added the half and half to see if it would slow the browning down. While this did brown a lot (I like this deep color I just don't want it at 30 minutes) it took a lot longer to do it but I changed too many things so I'm not certain why.

reply by: Mike Nolan on April 04, 2016 at 3:45 pm

Mike Nolan

The egg yolk will certainly make it darker, too. I often have extra egg white on hand because I seem to make more recipes that use egg yolks than ones that use egg whites. I've bought pasteurized egg whites a few times, but since you can't make meringue or a souffle from pasteurized egg whites (they won't whip up), I don't generally keep it on hand.
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Here's a page I bookmarked a while back that has a useful table of what kinds of egg wash to use when:
http://www.cooksinfo.com/egg-wash

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