Starter

[BakerAunt]

Aaron--The starter that I have says that it should be allowed to stand until it is bubbly, then stir and use. It is then fed. However, the recipes that accompanied this particular starter usually have the sourdough starter mixed with some milk or water and flour and allowed to sit until active and bubbles appear. The longer the wait, the sourer the flavor. This levain is then mixed with the rest of the ingredients, and those recipes usually include a bit of yeast.

I found from experience that if the levain develops a clear liquid on top, it will be more sour. If allowed just to be full of bubbles, it will not be so sour.

I've always fed my starter with unbleached flour, and I started feeding it with King Arthur unbleached flour once I discovered it. I have thought about dividing the starter and making a second that I feed just with whole wheat flour.

[aaronatthedoublef]

My starter is WW because that's what the recipe on Serious Eats said to use. Debra Wink says white flour is okay but whole grains are better and rye is the best. Per the blog our starters don't "catch" yeast but rather they are attached to the grain and in the flour. Whole grains have more of the original so there are more yeasties.

I have a two half loaves of bread left and have to make a cake today so we should be good on bread until this weekend. I'll experiment with my starter then.

Thanks

[BakerAunt]

I'm going to experiment today (Wednesday) with a Sourdough Whole Wheat bread recipe from the first edition of Sunset's Breads. I last made this bread a LONG time ago, back when I was hand kneading. I will play with the recipe a bit and report back.

[Mike Nolan]

Not all rye flour is 'whole grain' flour, just like not all wheat flour is 'whole grain', but I suspect aside from 'white rye' most rye flours would have more of the germ and bran than an AP wheat flour would have.

I ordered two different assortments of rye flours (8 packages in all) from NY Bakers, but when I ran out of the medium rye flour first (most of the Ginsberg recipes use it), I ordered 15 pounds of it from Bakers Authority, and I'm about a third of a way into the second bag.

I got the impression from a source I cannot recall that there are some aspects of rye flour that make feeding your wheat-based starter some rye flour every now and then a good thing. I don't recall if concluded it was enzymes or just a different and more robust type of starch.

The 1993 French law that controls what certain types of French bread can contain specifically mentions a starter that is based on either wheat or rye. See Article 4 in French Bread Law.

I can see my rye starter bubbling within a half hour of when I feed it, and it will double in about 6-8 hours. Using it as the inoculant for a wheat levain has been interesting, it takes about 12 hours for it to be active enough to make bread.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Thanks. Debra Wink does not distinguish between different types of rye. Ms. Wink is much more specific about bacteria than flours. I actually have about six pounds of KAF white rye and I am not certain why I bought it. I also have KAF "rye". It is probably time to make some rye bread again or at least try it in my starter.

[BakerAunt]

I also have some KAF white rye. I bought it for a KAF scone recipe but never got around to the recipe before having to give up massive amounts of butter. I also have a chocolate chip cookie recipe somewhere that calls for white rye--saved but never tried due to the butter issue.

I think this is it: https://www.bonappetit.com/recipe/whiskey-and-rye-chocolate-chip-cookies

King Arthur also has a chocolate chip cookie recipe that uses rye.

The Ginsberg Pumpkin Rye Bread that I made from his blog calls for white rye to dust the surface when shaping the bread, so I have found a use for it.

From what I can tell, white rye does not count as a wholegrain flour.

[Mike Nolan]

Deb is a microbiologist, so identifying types of bacteria is her metier. Identifying speific varieties of yeast is probably harder just using a microscope, it might take a genetic sequencer. Jeff Hamelman had an interesting post in the BBGA forum the other day in which he was talking about the possibility of genetically modified yeasts. Just what we need, another GMO to keep track of!

As I understand it, dark rye is whole grain, medium rye has some bran and germ but not as much as the original rye berry did, and white rye is like AP flour, it is mainly endosperm. Then you get into how finely it is ground and that gets you additional variations. There are probably variations on the rye berry itself, too, like there are with wheat berries (white wheat, soft and hard wheats, durum wheat, etc.) One of the pumpernickel rye flours I got from NY Bakers is almost as coarse as rye chops, I'm not sure that some of the pieces aren't bigger than the pieces in my bag of rye chops.

[BakerAunt]

That's interesting about the rye chops, Mike. Someone posted a review on the KAF site and said that their rye chops are not coarse enough.

[Mike Nolan]

I bought a five pound bag of rye chops a while back, I don't remember who from. It was a bit cheaper than whole rye berries. I thought I could grind them up to make pumpernickel flour if I ran out of it.

They're close to the size of my cracked wheat, which I'm OK with.

My older son has been making breads out of the updated AB5 book, he made a rye bread the other day and was pretty happy with it.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Brought my starter upstairs. It is currently warming and I'll feed it this morning and use it tonight or tomorrow morning.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I had two almost full quart jars of starter, one on the counter and one in the refrigerator. I've been using and feeding the one on the counter and used a lot to make sourdough bread and crackers this week so I brought up the one from the fridge. It builds up some alcohol so I check it every morning and pour off the hooch. I'll feed it and its sibling today. Maybe give them both some rye and check to see about the hooch build up at our now warm room temp.

[aaronatthedoublef]

More on starter. I learn every day...

I switched it up and used medium rye instead of whole wheat which yielded a noticeable increase in activity. I then found an open bag of rye flour but didn't realize it was white rye. It had lower activity than both whole wheat or medium rye. It means I also must have used it for deli rye. I going to have to pickup some dark rye and do a variation on Mike's rye tests using different ryes in the same recipe.

I had to toss a few cups of starter. 🙁 The edge of the jar looked and smelled moldy and I did not want to take a chance so I dumped it. I will need to be cleaner now. Over on the BBGA everyone says a clean container each day. They are using large containers - one fellow has five gallon buckets! If someone is going to use glass jars as I do see if you can use wide mouth jars, use a wide mouth canning funnel, and wipe down the mouth. I will also move to clean jars more often.

[BakerAunt]

Aaron--I rarely clean my jar, unless it has been sitting a long time. I use one of those glass jars with the wire clasp and a silicone or rubber gasket. That gives me more room to add flour and to mix. For mixing, I have one of those spring whisks, which goes up and down. I also refrigerate my starter sooner rather than later, which slows down the action.

All of that said, if the starter smells and looks funky, throw it out.

I look forward to hearing about your rye experiments with starter!

BTW--KAF has a chocolate sourdough cake recipe that I've made and we enjoyed. I think, however, that it uses butter. I may need to look at it and see if oil can be substituted.

It's hot here, so I am hoping for a cooler weekend so that I can bake again.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by BakerAunt.

[aaronatthedoublef]

I've started cleaning my jars. Plus I have two clean jars and I will move it to them later this week. I noticed while making my sourdough that the starter was a little looser than normal. That may be humidity. I try to keep it at 100% (that is what the original recipe called for) but I may up the flour content a bit.

[Mike Nolan]

I bought 15 pounds of medium rye from Bakers Authority for around $30, come cooler weather I may just buy a 50 pound bag, it'd only cost another $35 or so.

I may also check with the local Sysco office and see what they carry. Last I saw they still weren't allowing picking orders up at their warehouse.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Mike Nolan.

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