Autolyse Questions

[Bronx]

I just recently learned about autolyse and have some questions.

The methods I have read about autolyse seem to be for white breads. How well do you think this method would work for breads with more ingredients and other flours? These days I mostly make pumpernickel, with an occasional seeded rye. Would it be beneficial to do autolyse for these breads?

Would all the ingredients other than yeast and salt be used from the beginning, or would the autolyse process only be the flour and water? If so, how would I get a good mix of the rest of the ingredients after the gluten has formed? My pumpernickel recipe includes molasses, cocoa and instant coffee. I don't know how to get a thorough mix of those ingredients after the fact.

If only the flour and water are included in the initial mix, would it only be the AP flour or all the flour? My pumpernickel and rye also use whole wheat and rye flours.

Thanks for reading my post.

Bronx

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[Mike Nolan]

The autolyse step traces back to Prof. Raymond Calvel, who was primarily concerned with improving the quality of ordinary (white) bread in post-WW2 France.

However, it can be used with any flour, even non-wheat flours like rye and barley. The point of autolysis is to let the enzymes present in flour begin to break the complex carbohydrates down. Gluten development happens later on.

As I recall, Professor Calvel's autolyse step used just flour and water, no salt or yeast. If you are making enriched breads (ie, adding oil, sugar or milk), I'd do the autolyse step just as Prof. Calvel originally recommended. You can autolyse some or all of the flours, separately or together.

Calvel's book, "The Taste of Bread" (English translation, the original French title is "Le Goût du Pain") is an interesting look into this man's life work.

If your library has a copy, it's worth checking out. It's not an inexpensive book, in either language. You won't find many recipes in it, though.

[KIDPIZZA]

Bronx wrote:

I just recently learned about autolyse and have some questions.

The methods I have read about autolyse seem to be for white breads. How well do you think this method would work for breads with more ingredients and other flours? These days I mostly make pumpernickel, with an occasional seeded rye. Would it be beneficial to do autolyse for these breads?

Would all the ingredients other than yeast and salt be used from the beginning, or would the autolyse process only be the flour and water? If so, how would I get a good mix of the rest of the ingredients after the gluten has formed? My pumpernickel recipe includes molasses, cocoa and instant coffee. I don’t know how to get a thorough mix of those ingredients after the fact.

If only the flour and water are included in the initial mix, would it only be the AP flour or all the flour? My pumpernickel and rye also use whole wheat and rye flours.

Thanks for reading my post.

Bronx

BRONX.
Good morning. I have read your posting with much interest. I would like to explain very simply why this maneuver is done & how to do it...very simple like.

The purpose of "AUTOLYSE" in yeasted lean bread baking is to give the flour gluten a "HEAD START in developing it's structure.
So here we will do it like this as an EXAMPLE ONLY
Assume you are using say 20, oz of flour. Remove anywhere from 25% to 3/8ths% of this amount ( which is about 5, to 7.50,oz worth) into your mixing bowl.
Lets further assume in this example we employ 1/3rd amount which is about 6.75, oz
into your bowl. Now sprinkle in a minimum amount of instant dry yeast in say 1/2 of a 1/4, tsp worth. blend it & add exactly the same amount in weight of cold water, that is 6.75, oz worth. With a spatula spend 2, minutes agitating this flour mixture.
Now, when completed slowly & gently place the balance of the ingredients ( not the water ) evenly on the top surface do not disturb the autolyse portion.
Cover well with plastic wrap. Place a towel on top of bowl. Do not disturb for about 8 hours to an overnite.
Next operation is to place the dough hook in your mixer & begin adding the water.
Bronx, as far as your flour is concerned mix in the flours & in which amounts you like. However I believe when employing rye flour it is best not to exceed 3/8ths in amount of the total amount of flour because rye is lacking in gluten...hence poor structure.

Good luck with this bake & post back with your results. Enjoy the EASTER holiday.

~KIDPIZZA.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by KIDPIZZA.

[Bronx]

Thanks Mike! Boy, you're not kidding about the book not being inexpensive. I looked it up on Amazon.com and was a little shocked at the prices. Too bad there isn't a Kindle edition.

Bronx

[KIDPIZZA]

Bronx wrote:

I just recently learned about autolyse and have some questions.

The methods I have read about autolyse seem to be for white breads. How well do you think this method would work for breads with more ingredients and other flours? These days I mostly make pumpernickel, with an occasional seeded rye. Would it be beneficial to do autolyse for these breads?

Would all the ingredients other than yeast and salt be used from the beginning, or would the autolyse process only be the flour and water? If so, how would I get a good mix of the rest of the ingredients after the gluten has formed? My pumpernickel recipe includes molasses, cocoa and instant coffee. I don’t know how to get a thorough mix of those ingredients after the fact.

If only the flour and water are included in the initial mix, would it only be the AP flour or all the flour? My pumpernickel and rye also use whole wheat and rye flours.

Thanks for reading my post.

Bronx

[/quote

Bronx wrote:

I just recently learned about autolyse and have some questions.

The methods I have read about autolyse seem to be for white breads. How well do you think this method would work for breads with more ingredients and other flours? These days I mostly make pumpernickel, with an occasional seeded rye. Would it be beneficial to do autolyse for these breads?

Would all the ingredients other than yeast and salt be used from the beginning, or would the autolyse process only be the flour and water? If so, how would I get a good mix of the rest of the ingredients after the gluten has formed? My pumpernickel recipe includes molasses, cocoa and instant coffee. I don’t know how to get a thorough mix of those ingredients after the fact.

If only the flour and water are included in the initial mix, would it only be the AP flour or all the flour? My pumpernickel and rye also use whole wheat and rye flours.

Thanks for reading my post.

Bronx

BRONX:
Good morning. I do not ever remember in ever posting with you before. Sooo, happy to meet you today.
I have answered your inquiry last week. When I was completed, It disappeared I do not know why it did. I didn't want to re~do it because it was quite lengthy & thorough in information....I thought that is want you wanted to learn.
Anyway, If I knew that you will do my explanation of "AUTOLYSE" in your bread baking I would re~write it for your convienance.

Good luck in your bread baking, & enjoy the weekend..

~KIDPIZZA.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Mike, Bronx, I just read something on autolysis here that recommends adding the yeast with the flour and the water. The authors concern is that mixing the yeast and the salt in to the water/flour mixture could result in the salt killing the yeast.

I made some pizza dough Wednesday and let the water/flour/yeast sit for 20 minutes before adding salt, some more flour, and kneading. We're making pizza tonight so we'll see if anyone notices any difference.

But does autolyzing make any difference when making bread with a starter or sour? What about a bread that sits and ferments for 18-24 hours (like Jim Lahey's no-knead rye bread)?

[Mike Nolan]

I recently read an article that said salt and yeast co-exist just fine as long as you don't do something like dump salt into a container of proofing yeast. That wasn't as true with cake yeast, but today's active dry or instant yeasts are less sensitive. (Of course if you quadruple the salt, as I did once, you'll get an inedible brick.)

Anyway, the point to autolysis, at least according to its originator, is to let enzymes go to work on the flour, which helps the yeast access the sugar in the flour later on. If you add yeast you're basically making a preferment, like a biga or a poolish. That's a good thing to do, too, but it invokes different biological processes and leads to different (though good) results.

I've seen a number of recipes that use a preferment AND autolysis, and even a few that use a preferment, autolysis and a mash or soaker. (A mash, as I understand it, involves heat, a soaker stays at room temperature.)

Cass, I'm sorry your article didn't post properly, I'm not sure what went wrong. It doesn't seem likely that it would have run afoul of the anti-spam filter. (According to the logs, the anti-spam filter I use has filtered out over 400 spam posts this month!)

[Mike Nolan]

I did some looking around and although I don't have a lot of resources on sourdough, I don't see anything in any of them that suggests an autolysis step. Not sure why.

[Bronx]

I appreciate all the thoughts on this topic.

KidPizza, I was a long time lurker at the KAF forum, but never joined because I'm just an amateur weekend cook. I've read many of your posts and am impressed by your knowledge and the knowledge of many other posters at the old site and now here. I feel like a baking dummy in comparison!

Sorry that your autolyse post got lost, but I don't want to trouble you to type all that again. I know how you feel; I recently spent a couple hours working on an AutoCad drawing and accidentally closed it without saving it. The thought of having to redo the whole drawing ruined my day.

The next time I make pumpernickel I'm going to try the autolyse method and see if anyone notices a difference, good or bad.

Bronx

[Mike Nolan]

I thought Autocad had an auto-save feature in it, like Word does. Maybe you need to do one 'save' just to get it started?

I've lost track of the number of things I lost in 40+ years as a programmer due to programs failing or related problems.

[Bronx]

AutoCad doesn't save a backcup file if you close the drawing and when it asks if you want to save it you click no. That's the danger of having multiple drawings open at the same time, which I did, and closed the wrong one by mistake. Doh!

Bronx

[Mike Nolan]

I've never worked with Autocad, back when we were designing our house 20 years ago we had an architect who did the real work in Autocad (or a similar program) and I was using a version of Broderbund's 3D Home Architect program to shadow his work and do 3D 'walkthroughs' as we worked on room layouts, deciding where to locate appliances, doors, closets, built-in cabinets, furniture placement, etc.

As I told my wife the day they started digging the foundation, I could have probably walked through the house blind-folded before it was built. Interestingly enough, in 20 years we've found little reason to move anything around, we'd already done that hundreds of times on paper.

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