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Input needed please!
sandra Alicante
So here goes.
I and trying to do a vanilla cake recipe and get a decent rise on it without it falling. I am having mixed success.
The recipe is as follows
9oz CAKE flour
9 oz sugar
pinch salt
4 tsp baking powder
6 oz Softened butter
3 large eggs
8 oz milk (weighed not fl oz)
2 oz oil
vanilla
It is made by mixing the butter into the dry ingred until sand stage, then adding 1/3 liquid and mixing on med for 2 minutes until pale and fluffy. Then the rest of the liquid is added slowly on low speed. At the end of it you get a nice thick creamy looking batter for 2 2inch deep 8 inch cake pans.
Now, my issue is not having unbleached cake flour. Originally when I did the recipe, although the taste and texture are lovely, they shrank from the sides and dipped in the top ( even though not under or over cooked).
It seems that no matter what flour I use, if I get a good rise, it will fall. I upped the flour to 10.5 oz and that helped - it is no longer shrinking but the rise is not great. This is using a cake flour from EU with raising agent in it (omitting the baking powder). I tried using a plain flour WITH the baking powder but that still sank.
Would I be better off decreasing the liquids? The flour has a protein content of 9%.
I'm looking forward to your in put. Maybe I am just striving for perfection when it isn't possible with the ingredients I have, but you know me, I don't give up easily!
I also tried the subbing of flour with cornflour, that made matters worse - should I try doing that with a higher protein flour?
badge posted by: sandra Alicante on May 01, 2016 at 6:01 am in General discussions
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REPLIES TO THIS DISCUSSIONreply by: bakeraunt on May 01, 2016 at 9:22 am
bakeraunt
I'm wondering if there is too much baking powder.
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 01, 2016 at 10:31 am
Mike Nolan
Where did this recipe come from? It seems unbalanced.
reply by: rparrny on May 01, 2016 at 10:55 am
rparrny
Sandra, I recognize this recipe as you posted it earlier and I made it for my strawberries and cream and it came out great. I know in Spain you are limited in your flour choices. Do you have access to AP flour? If so, I would recommend using AP, wisk in the leavening agents and the salt with a wisk until well incorporated (it takes longer than you think) then sifting it before proceeding with the recipe.
Mike, I agree this recipe looks unbalanced and if you saw the technique it would make you shudder...goes against everything you have ever been taught about cake making...but it does work and my family and I just loved the results. I posted a picture of the results, look for the cake with strawberries and cream.
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 01, 2016 at 11:43 am
sandra Alicante
Mike, here is the link.
http://artisancakecompany.com/recipe/scratch-vanilla-cake/
I originally tried it with OUR cake flour (i.e. European) with only 1 tsp of baking powder added. The result was a texture and taste to die for but the cakes didn't rise much but did shrink. (Which is a bit of a pain when you want nice tidy straight sides and a cake to torte).
If I use an AP type flour and leave the recipe alone, it does the same. (and yes, I mixed and sifted etc).
If I up the flour ratio, using either flour and a weight of 10.5 oz, when it comes out of the oven it looks much improved in rise (more like hers) but then it still deflates. (Even when passing the toothpick test and starting to pull from the sides).
I get that first pale fluffy stage, no problem and I have tried either mixing more or less on the second liquid stage, thinking I was mixing too much or too little.
The difference is that in EU we can't buy bleached flour and that acts differently. What I am trying to find is a fix for that issue, maybe the impossible!
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 01, 2016 at 1:47 pm
Mike Nolan
I'm not sure what you can do about the unavailability of bleached cake flour in Spain, have you tried the recipe for 'Kate flour'? https://amerrierworld.com/kate-flour/ (This site has been updated and says baked unbleached flour is now available in the UK.)
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The recipe still seems to me like it has too much salt and too much baking powder. I also wonder, given that it seems to be coming from a commercial baker, if it was intended for a convection oven.
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By comparison, here's another recipe for a basic yellow cake. I'm not sure if this is the one my wife uses all the time, I'm pretty sure that one came from Pillsbury, though:
http://www.pillsbury.com/recipes/basic-yellow-cake/2b3266a9-647e-4ecf-bb...
reply by: rparrny on May 01, 2016 at 2:26 pm
rparrny
Just thinking out loud here...but I wonder if you increased your salt a bit (I see you are using just a pinch), if that would help to stabilize the gluten?
reply by: bakeraunt on May 01, 2016 at 3:02 pm
bakeraunt
I have seen that dry creaming technique before. I have used it with a recipe that I've baked with the KAF cake flour blend. At some point Kid Pizza commented on it and warned that you have to be careful about the mixer speed, but I do not recall exactly what he said about it. Maybe Swirth can unearth that thread before the Baking Circle and its posts vanishes forever from cyberspace.
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A quick substitute for cake flour is regular flour with 2 Tbs. of cornstarch put into the bottom of each cup before adding the flour. Indeed, the KAF cake flour blend contains cornstarch, It does not help you in Spain, but KAF now has an unbleached cake flour (not flour blend). So does Bob's Red Mill. I just bought a bag of the Bob's (less expensive than the KAF, got a good review from aaronathedoubleff here on the BC, and I got free shipping on a promotion by buying more than $50, with prices that were better than I could get on Bob's Red Mill in the stores here. I plan to try it in some recipes once the semester is over and I have more time to bake, When Mike gets his site up and running, I will report on how well the Bob's unbleached cake flour works. I was new to the idea of cake flour when I joined the Baking Circle. As I've not done much baking with it, I may not be a perfect judge on how it performs.
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 01, 2016 at 3:09 pm
sandra Alicante
I think I mentioned in my post that I had already tried the cornflour technique and that made my flour so soft it was even worse!
It isn't a standard yellow cake recipe, it is however a really nice one. I have made all sorts of vanilla cakes in the past, using various techniques but I really like this one. I'm being fussy trying to get it perfect - the texture and flavour when eaten is great, I just want to get the height without it falling. I may not be able to with the ingredients I can get.
Maybe though I should try a harder flour with the cornflour and see if that is better. At the moment I have a lot of cake around though.....:)
reply by: bakeraunt on May 01, 2016 at 3:27 pm
bakeraunt
Sandra: Grab every person going past your house and stuff a piece of cake in his or her hand!
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 01, 2016 at 3:39 pm
sandra Alicante
Lol, hubby already complains that I feed everybody!
reply by: KIDPIZZA on May 01, 2016 at 4:18 pm
KIDPIZZA
BAKERAUNT:
Good Sunday afternoon Marliss. I went thru this recipe a few days ago. I accidently found it. It was interesting because of two reasons. First it employs a mixing method known as "THE 2 STAGE MIXING METHOD" The other it is out of balance somewhat....hence the WHY this baked product dips in the middle & doesn't stabilize after baking.
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I didn't wish to comment on this recipe,but because you are involved I will mention to you what needs to be done only in case you wish to bake this cake for your place of work in the future. I want you to be successfull with it.
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Marliss your right, this mixing method is best left to prof bakers. It must be done properly or it will suffer (LOL).
Now then This method has been stated by a few prof bakers that it is no better than the typical "CREAMING METHOD" that we all use for our cake/pastry baking.
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Marliss my friend if you do save this recipe make these notes. Baking powder 2,1/2 tsp
MILK reduce to 4, oz (1/2, cup) Marliss, consider using the creaming method.
Marliss as you already know, when using solid fats always use BLEACHED flour. If you do not have cake flour which is bleached.... employ AP with some cornstarch mixed in sifted twice. Also Marliss, in creaming as you know slow speed for a slightly longer time period is best for an efficient outcome. Marliss, if I can help you any further post back.
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Enjoy the rest of the weekend my dear friend.
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~CASS..
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reply by: cwcdesign on May 01, 2016 at 4:38 pm
cwcdesign
Sandra,
Check out this blogI remember reading it when I lived in Ireland and could find cake four. I was a little intimidated by the process, but maybe you'll have luck
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Sorry, I didn't read Mike's post before I posted - great minds think alike
reply by: bakeraunt on May 01, 2016 at 6:19 pm
bakeraunt
Hello, Cass. Thank you for scrutinizing the recipe. I much prefer the creaming method, so when I bake this cake at some point, I will use that method.. (I copied the recipe, then I copied your reply with the title, "Kid Pizza's Real Life Notes to Fix This Recipe.) I still have some Queen G. flour left in the freezer, so maybe it would be nice to give his recipe a try later this summer.
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Thanks to you, I've become observant about too much baking powder in recipes, and I now also pay attention to baking soda in recipes that employ it. I have learned a lot from reading your posts.
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Have a delightful coming week,
Marliss
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 02, 2016 at 7:13 am
sandra Alicante
OK, so this morning I had another go, this time with our version of Cake flour (raising agent inc) adding only 1 tsp of baking powder.
I cut the milk down to 6oz. The cake rose to the top of the tin but didn't hold the rise.
I'm looking at heating up plain 9% flour and possibly adding in 1/4 tsp of Xanthum gum, which is often found in cake mix...
Her recipe must work, since there is a video of it being made and indeed, similar recipes by other bakers, even though the percentages seem off. It was baked by her in a domestic oven too.
I am also looking into a friend with a pizza business sourcing some proper cake flour.....:)
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 02, 2016 at 8:28 am
sandra Alicante
Just found this, which could be interesting (not the marbling though).
The method cooks the flour first.....only in a roux.
http://kitchentigress.blogspot.com.es/2014/10/marble-butter-sponge-cake-...
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 02, 2016 at 9:47 pm
Mike Nolan
Sandra, I'm thinking of giving your recipe a go in the next week, but I'd like to duplicate your conditions as much as I can. That means not using cake flour, I'm thinking of using unbleached pastry flour mixed with KAF AP flour, so that the total protein level is around 10%. (Unfortunately for us home bakers, there is no reliable home test for measuring protein content.)
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Texas Sheet Cake prowess notwithstanding, I'm not a cake wizard, so it should be a fair test.
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Starting with a roux (or perhaps something like the tangzhong method) would be interesting, but I think that's a completely different set of experiments.
reply by: skeptic7 on May 02, 2016 at 11:22 pm
skeptic7
What is the oven temperature? I had a cake rise and then fall, and the problem was tracked down to a too hot oven instead of any problem with the ingredients.
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 03, 2016 at 5:37 am
sandra Alicante
The oven temp is a tad under 170c. (I'm not using convection) and the cakes are done in the time specified in the recipe, so it must be about right.
Mike, I heated some plain flour (around 9%) in the microwave yesterday and I shall use that with the original recipe today to see if it makes any difference. I checked my baking powder and it says to use 10g for 250g of flour, so I shall take my jewellers scales and measure that, just to be hyper accurate. Her baking powder may be different, mine is Royal Professional brand and I don't want to over do it.
The recipe does not state the weight of the eggs, I will use 3 large as stated and 8 inch tins.
I'll post the result later!
Result
Well it was an improvement in that it didn't sink as much, but not perfect. So....I decided to try another option.
I had read that commercial mixes often contain Xanthum (not sure of spelling) gum. Hmmm.
As it happens, I had some Tylose that had been made up (1/4tsp in 1 tbspwater) so that it was already a gel, for an edible glue. It is very similar stuff and should help keep the cake inflated.
So next round....
I upped the flour in the recipe to 10oz (this had previously improved things) using our spanish version of SR flour + 1 tsp baking powder.
The rest of the recipe was kept the same, up to the point of adding liquid.
After the first addition of liquid and the beating for 2 minutes, I added the Tylose to the remaining liquid and stirred it in. Then I went on with the recipe as normal.
RESULT! I am waiting for the cake to cool, but this time I got it to dome slightly and actually retain it on cooling. I need to check cake texture when it is cold, but from first impression it seems good.
It is quite possible that without the extra baking powder the cake would have been level, or if I had kept the flour to the same amount - but by this time, I would rather have a domed cake than a thin one..
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 03, 2016 at 12:57 pm
sandra Alicante
Update -
The cake turned out ok - didn't sink or shrink but the crumb is not as fine as I would really like - so maybe tomorrow I shall try again....this time adding the extra flour as cornflour not the normal sort...
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 03, 2016 at 1:16 pm
Mike Nolan
What ARE you doing with all these cakes??
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 03, 2016 at 2:30 pm
sandra Alicante
Lol,
At the moment they are in the cake tin, in the freezer and in trifle....I need a garden party....:)
reply by: bakeraunt on May 03, 2016 at 5:12 pm
bakeraunt
Sorry, double post
reply by: bakeraunt on May 03, 2016 at 5:11 pm
bakeraunt
Today, I came across this article on unbleached vs. bleached flour.
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http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/05/why-no-unbleached-cake-flour.html
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Yes, once again, we of the Baking Circle are discussing cutting edge topics!
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 03, 2016 at 5:20 pm
Mike Nolan
I believe it is possible to adjust most recipes for using unbleached flours, but I find the examples of fallen Angel food cakes using unbleached flour on that page unpersuasive as an argument against unbleached flours. Anybody can make a BAD cake (I'm quite good at making nearly inedible Angel food cakes, for example), it takes a skilled baker to know how to adjust to the ingredients on hand to make a good one.
reply by: KIDPIZZA on May 03, 2016 at 6:40 pm
KIDPIZZA
BAKERAUNT:
Good afternoon. Thank you for locating this article on CAKE FLOUR. I enjoyed reading it very much so. Much I was not aware of...good to know.... so my thanks again to you Marliss my friend.
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I must mention just one thing however, This writer/author of the article did not mention nor write the main purpose of the "WHY" we should employ BLEACHED FLOUR in cake baking. In other words why does the baked product come out far superior, what happens internally to the batter...without going into college food chemistry language & a dissatation. Just simple description.
I once wrote about what happens to the flour in it's make~up during this process. I do not know how to locate same it was about a year or 1.5, years ago. I gather this writer doesn't know of it or she would have posted same because of it's importance.
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It is very important in just PLAIN ANGEL FOOD cake baking (Cake Flour) but there are a few very important rules to follow. Many can be found in various baking books...YES!!! but & however, The recipe MUST BE EXACT...cannot veer from this rule. In order to achieve the proper consistency of this baked product there are 2 ingredients that must be exact relationship to each other. I have never mentioned it before when discussing Angel food cake baking. Many recipes are proper but not ALL!!.... hence the failure.
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Anyway enjoy the day my friend.
~CASS.
reply by: sandra Alicante on May 03, 2016 at 7:47 pm
sandra Alicante
Mike,
I can manage most things (since I don't readily give up and will keep trying till I work it out) but I have never managed to make an Angel Cake worth eating. I admit, I have never had one from a bakery or store (they don't sell them in Europe, not that I have found anyway) so I don't know what it is supposed to be like, other than written descriptions.
I came across this recipe today and may give that method a go, see if it makes a difference. The beating is slightly different to what I was experimenting with.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/tender-white-cake-recipe
It is actually using unbleached cake flour....
Cass,
Glad to see you are posting still, thanks for the tips!
reply by: Mike Nolan on May 03, 2016 at 8:47 pm
Mike Nolan
There's an 'elegant white cake' recipe in the KAF Baker's Companion that I've made several times, it is my go-to 'white cake' recipe. I've tried several WASC recipes, this one is better.
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