Making an altus

[aaronatthedoublef]

I am about to dive into making rye bread. Specifically I want to come up with a recipe for Jewish Rye bread. I have several different recipes and I'll try at least a couple and let friends and family sample and help decide (only one family member likes rye so I'll have to rely heavily on friends).

One recipe calls for a cup of altus and describes it as old rye soaked in water with the water wrung out. But that's it. Does anyone have any advice on how much rye with how much water? Is it like making dough balls like my dad used to make for fishing?

Am I over-thinking this?

Thanks

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[Mike Nolan]

If you start with a cup of dry rye bread, you will probably need to add about a quarter cup of water, maybe up to a half cup. It'll expand as it soaks up the water, then press the remaining water out. (I've used a potato masher to do that.)

[aaronatthedoublef]

Excellent. Thanks

[Bronx]

Just out of curiosity, what purpose does that serve? Does it take the place of a starter?

Enjoy reading rye posts; always looking for tips that may improve my rye bread.

Bronx

[Mike Nolan]

To be honest, I'm not sure what an altus does or what's happening chemically, I just know that it makes a big difference in the bread.

[KIDPIZZA]

Bronx wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what purpose does that serve? Does it take the place of a starter?

Enjoy reading rye posts; always looking for tips that may improve my rye bread.

Bronx

BRONX & MIKE NOLAN:
Good afternoon. Thank you BRONX for your kind sentiment you posted to me in a previous post.

The purpose of employing this OLD WORLD technique began by the POLISH bakers in the late 1800's. What is does is it provides added moisture to the current production, & additional flavor. We soak the old bread & then squeeze it & mix it in the current batch when mixing.
This is very good for PUMPERNICKEL/RYE breads.
But & however, it has been said employing the AUTOLYZE & or the SPONGE technique does the very same thing..... maybe it looks like the old saying 6 of 1 or a half a dozen of another.

Anyway I hope this information helps your INQUIRING MINDS.

Enjoy the day my friends.

~KIDPIZZA / CASS

PS:

Bronx, when you are ready to bake your rye bread post your inquiries so that we can help you get a viable loaf of rye bread. Also can you post your first name for us ???

[aaronatthedoublef]

Kid, Mike, Thanks.

I am working to make a Jewish deli rye. I have three recipes I am looking at and going from simplest to most complex there is:

Jim Lahey's which does not use a starter or an altus but is mixed and then sits for 18-24 hours at room temperature. So it will ferment and this will add some nice flavor. Mr. Lahey does not refer to his rye as

Then Marcy Goldman's from Jewish Holiday Baking has a bread with no altus but a starter.

Last is George Greenstein from his book Secrets of a Jewish Baker. This recipe calls for a sour which is a starter that is built over 48 hours (at least) as well as a half cup of altus (this is optional but recommended). Mr. Greenstein also calls for real clear flour and the only place I've found this retail is KAF.

I've checked with Whole Foods and Hartford Baking Company (HBC makes the best bread in the area and where I apprenticed shaping and making breads) and neither uses an altus but both use a starter.

I will try those three and see which hits. Based on experience at HBC the people around here do not like very sour bread like the kind found in San Francisco and Seattle.

[Mike Nolan]

Ask 10 bakers how to make rye bread and you'll probably get 15 or more methods. 🙂

I haven't been to Seattle, so I don't know what their sourdough is like. Not all San Francisco sourdough breads are really sour, it depends on the mix of bacteria in the mother culture. I suggest reading Chad Robertson's Tartine Bakery books for procedures for making a sourdough that isn't oppressively sour.

For what it's worth, my wife can't tolerate the sourdough breads that I buy from local bakeries here in Nebraska because it is way too sour, but she handles many San Francisco sourdoughs just fine when we've been out there.

[KIDPIZZA]

aaronatthedoublef wrote:

Kid, Mike, Thanks.

I am working to make a Jewish deli rye. I have three recipes I am looking at and going from simplest to most complex there is:

Jim Lahey’s which does not use a starter or an altus but is mixed and then sits for 18-24 hours at room temperature. So it will ferment and this will add some nice flavor. Mr. Lahey does not refer to his rye as

Then Marcy Goldman’s from Jewish Holiday Baking has a bread with no altus but a starter.

Last is George Greenstein from his book Secrets of a Jewish Baker. This recipe calls for a sour which is a starter that is built over 48 hours (at least) as well as a half cup of altus (this is optional but recommended). Mr. Greenstein also calls for real clear flour and the only place I’ve found this retail is KAF.

I’ve checked with Whole Foods and Hartford Baking Company (HBC makes the best bread in the area and where I apprenticed shaping and making breads) and neither uses an altus but both use a starter.

I will try those three and see which hits. Based on experience at HBC the people around here do not like very sour bread like the kind found in San Francisco and Seattle.

AARON:
Good afternoon. Aaron the best rye bread or any bread that is best for you is the recipe that pleases you.
Sooo, with that said, you need to bake a easy recipe. One that is to your understanding of what you are doing. This way you may get what you are happy with.
I have a saying...SIMPLICITY IS OF THE ESSENCE... keep it simple Aaron.

Aaron do a simple recipe with a "OVERNITE SPONGE"
Aaron a simple DELI RYE is simple. Look "CLEAR FLOUR" is good for rye but only for this reason...it is flour that is hi in gluten but with the bran left in, hence it provides the article that tannish color to the bread that deli rye is associated with..
Aaron you can do the same thing go to the health food store & buy BRAN FLOUR in bulk form . Use bread flour unbleached style. Do not employ more than 3/8ths in weight of the total flour weight in MEDIUM OR LITE RYE FLOUR. You can use tiny bit of cocoa powder or even 1/2 tsp molasses or brown sugar even a very slightly amount of OJ for the hydration. Trust me Aaron you can make your recipe just as well as these book authors can.

Let us know how you well you have done for yourself...SOON !!!.

Enjoy the day.

~KIDPIZZA

[aaronatthedoublef]

Kid,

Thanks. As always I appreciate your wisdom and, normally I would just make the Marcy Goldman rye bread. She is my gold standard for Jewish baking. And it has, as you recommend, an overnight starter but isn't too fussy.

But I am coming up with a recipe for some people who want to open a deli. Again, that is a call for simplicity but I want to 1) give them a choice and 2) give them something that is distinctive and different from what they can find any place else. But the choice will be up to them.

Mike I will look up the Tartine Bakery book. Thanks

[Mike Nolan]

Aaron, have you checked with the restaurant supply folks to see if clear flour is available in bulk?

As I recall, when my ex-neighbor checked on it, GM had it in 50 pound bags in the eastern US and on the west coast, but not in the central US. (Unless I wanted to order a pallet--40 bags.)

Stover & Company (Pittsburgh area restaurant supplier) has Bay State Milling clear flour in 50 pound bags. Star of the West Milling also sells clear flour.

It is not quite the same as adding bran to flour, clear flour has a yellow tint that make it almost cream colored. That's not a problem when making rye bread.

I've added rye chops to rye dough, it adds a crunch like cracked wheat.

[aaronatthedoublef]

Mike,

I forgot to check the restaurant supply stores. I probably could have asked a couple of bakeries I know to sell me flour too. But I don't want a 50 lb bag just yet. I had a coupon from KAF so I used that and bought some from them.

Thanks

[Mike Nolan]

We have a bakery with French-trained bakers in town that imports #55 flour from France and bakes it in a steam injection deck oven they imported from Italy. According to the people in the local French club their sourdough baguettes are as good as what you will find in most of the boulangeries in Paris. I agree that it's VERY good, my wife thinks it's a bit too sour for her. Their crust is incredible, you just can't duplicate what a good steam injection oven can do at home.

But they've been unwilling to sell flour to folks, they'd rather sell the bread. There's a place in California that sells #55 French flour in 2 kilo bags, but with shipping it gets kind of pricey.

[Author]

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