Finnish Rye Bread and yeast

[uploader's note: a thread wherein our fearless BC members help luvpyrpom bake the perfect loaf of Finnish Rye Bread!]

Many years ago, a friend shared with me her Finnish Rye bread recipe. Of course, the ingredients were simple: 2 pkgs of dry yeast, rye flour, unbleached flour, 1/4 c. molasses and 1/3 c. white sugar. Knowing what I know about yeast nowadays (and it's very little), I tried to make the bread yesterday with the SAF Instant yeast (5 tsp) because I thought that the sugar content was pretty high. Only got 1 good rise - the dough doubled in about 30 min or less. Not much of a rise with the second one or even in the oven. The bread came out tasty but the loaves were only 2.5 inches in height and pretty dense. Should I try the active yeast next time? Or was it too much yeast? I figured 1 pkg = 2.5 tsp of yeast.
Thanks
Tiara
posted by: luvpyrpom on October 06, 2013 at 3:34 pm in Q & A

reply by: hickeyja on October 06, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Rye is a difficult bread to master. Rises may take longer too, especially if the rye content is high. How much rye flour and white flour did you use? How did your measure it? We can't tell if the yeast amount is ok or not without knowing how much flour you used. Jan

reply by: Mike Nolan on October 06, 2013 at 10:38 pm
Having the full recipe makes it much easier to point out potential issues. I will say that seems like a lot of molasses & sugar.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on October 06, 2013 at 10:40 pm
Was the unbleached flour bread flour, or at least KAF AP flour (which at 11.7% protein is pretty much bread flour)? How much rye to other flour?
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Skip the second rise - I can't recall any rye recipe I've ever baked using one. Rye has a different proportion of proteins that don't support a lot of gluten development, and what there is tends to start breaking down. A second rise is just extra time for that breakdown to occur. Do the first rise, shape and bake. It might have been too much yeast if it rose that fast, unless the room was pretty warm. If the room was pretty warm that would have caused the rapid rise. I'd try about 1 to 1.5 tsp for each 12 oz (by weight) of flour - sort of depends on the ratio of rye to "regular" bread flour ...

reply by: luvpyrpom on October 07, 2013 at 12:12 am
The recipe called for 2.5 cups of rye and unbleached flour each. With an additional 2.5 cups of regular AP if needed. It also called for 3 rises but I just can't imagine it needing 3 rises. Then I started thinking maybe I should add some vital wheat gluten in also to help it rise?
Tiara

reply by: Mike Nolan on October 07, 2013 at 12:28 am
You still haven't given us the complete recipe. You left out water (or some other liquid) and, presumably, salt. Have you left anything else out?
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What did the dough look and feel like? Doughs with a lot of rye flour can get gummy, and that will interfere with how it rises.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on October 07, 2013 at 1:25 am
OK, but what kind of flour is the "unbleached" flour - is it a standard AP flour, with protein content on the order of 10.5%? Or is it a bread flour, with protein content of 11.5% to 12% ish?
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How do you tell if it "needs" another 2.5 cups of AP flour? And that just doesn't sound right - I've never heard of trying to make a rye loaf with standard AP flour - it just doesn't have enough gluten components to bring the rye up to snuff, structurally speaking.
Mike's right, we really need to see the recipe in its entirety, including the instructions.

reply by: KIDPIZZA on October 07, 2013 at 7:28 am
LUVPYRPOM:
Good morning. Sorry to learn of your bread baking disappointment. I didn't read where you mentioned the quantity of SALT....A most important ingredient in YEASTED Bread Baking. Besides the taste element salt slows down the rate of fermentation (1st rise to you) Hence, why your bread fermented quickly as you stated in 30, minutes. It has other important functions as well but not necessary to go into it now.
Let's talk about the yeast you have mentioned. If you used 5, tsp of yeast that is very close to in between 1/2 to 5/8ths of an oz. yeast....way, way too excessive. All that is required is 1.75 to 2.25, tsp max, Max of instant yeast or the packet yeast & this amount I mentioned is upper tolerance. As far as the salt is concerned use the same amount of table salt as you are going to employ in the yeast, i.e.--2 tsp of yeast....2, tsp of table salt.
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The fermentation & the subsequent proofings are completed at 80 degrees or close to that temp.
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Then come back & tell us how well your rye bread baked for you.
.Good luck & enjoy the rest of the day.
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~KIDPIZZA.

reply by: luvpyrpom on October 07, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Please remember this recipe was given to me over 20 years ago and I'm sure that there was not that many choices of flour and yeast back then. And there are no rise times written either so I'm going on the basic of "rise until double"

Original recipe:
1.5 cups warm water
2 pkgs dry yeast
1/4 cup molasses
1/3 cup. white sugar
2 Tbs. olive oil
2.5 cups rye flour
2.5 cups. unbleached flour
additional 2 - 2.5 c white flour

Mix/knead using additional flour if necessary to form an elastic and smooth dough. Let rise twice, then shape into loaves. Let rise again, then bake at 375 for 25 min.
Thank you, Kidpizza, for the explanation on the yeast amount - I will try to use less the next time. It is a different type of rye recipe as there's no seeds. It looks and tastes like a very sweet whole wheat bread.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on October 07, 2013 at 5:34 pm
OK, we're getting somewhere now - but could you let us know what kind of unbleached flour you actually used?
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From what you say, I am GUESSING you used "regular" AP flour - but I'm not sure ... also let us know the manufacturer as some flours that are labeled AP flour may actually be even lower in protein, depending on the region...
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EDIT: Also, I cannot imagine taking any Rye bread through 3 full rises. I've never seen a recipe that called for more than one. Has anybody else ever made a multiple rise rye?
reply by: Mike Nolan on October 07, 2013 at 5:36 pm

Rise times in recipes are, at best, approximations, anyway! I've seen the "time to double" vary from under 90 minutest to over 2 1/2 hours for the same recipe, depending on the day. Why? Various factors, such as the temperature in the kitchen, humidity, the exact moisture level of the dough and whether or not I fully scalded the milk for that recipe. Even barometric pressure might factor in somewhat!
reply by: Mike Nolan on October 07, 2013 at 5:39 pm
I've seen some 'black rye' recipes that went through multiple rises before shaping, but those recipes were 75% rye flour (or higher) and I think they used a sourdough starter, too.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on October 07, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Yeah, rise TIMES vary - but the number of times you let it rise, punch down, let it rise again ... etc.... I've never seen a recipe that calls for multiple rises on a rye loaf, not even two, let alone 3... perhaps my rye repertoire is limited?

reply by: Mike Nolan on October 07, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Several years ago i went looking for Russian Rye/black bread recipes, I think I tried a dozen of them before pretty much giving up, I could never get the proper internal caramelization. But I think I found over 100 variants out there, both on the Internet and in various books I checked. It'd be fun to research it at a library like the one at the Culinary Institute of America!

reply by: KIDPIZZA on October 08, 2013 at 7:45 am
LUVPYRPOM:
Good morning my friend. Thank you for the prompt reply. I must caution you of a few items here....I want you to succeed in this baking project even though this recipe as the youngsters of today like to say... IT SUCKS.
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Now then remember reduce the yeast as I have cautioned you & the recipe does not show SALT. It is very important that you add about 2, tsp. Max. One more thing, notice the water amount ......not enough hydration!!!! at bare minimum you will need 2,1/2 cups & that includes the water in the molasses as well.
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Tiara, let us know how you fared in this project
Good luck & enjoy the rest of the day.
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~KIDPIZZA.

reply by: bakeraunt on October 08, 2013 at 11:45 pm
One question for Tiara: did you use a yeast designed for breads with a high sugar content? If so, it would not have worked well, given the amount of flour. I think that King Arthur has an explanation on the company website on when to use that kind of yeast. Also, as others have pointed out, the lack of salt is a major problem.

In reading your recipe, I noted that it is very close to the Swedish Limpa bread that I like to bake. I adapted the recipe from McCall's Cooking School #8 (magazine that I bought years ago), and I have made some changes over the years. Like your recipe, mine has 1/4 C molasses and it uses 1/2 C of light brown sugar (not white). I also use First Clear Flour (from King Arthur) when I bake rye bread.

I will try to figure out how to post my recipe on my personal page. It might give you some further ideas about how to adjust your recipe.

reply by: luvpyrpom on October 09, 2013 at 12:43 am
Thank you KidPizza and Bakeraunt for your tips. I did use the SAF instant yeast with the thought of the high sugar content. Next time I will add the salt and active yeast and extra water to see how it turns out. I will keep you all up to date.
Thanks
Tiara

reply by: Mike Nolan on October 09, 2013 at 9:26 am
The high sugar (osmotolerant) yeast is SAF Gold. Other types of SAF Instant Yeast should have been fine with that recipe.

reply by: bakeraunt on October 10, 2013 at 12:37 am
I have posted my Swedish Limpa bread recipe. [BakerAunt's note: I have posted the recipe here at Nebraska Kitchen.]

reply by: luvpyrpom on October 11, 2013 at 1:29 am
Thank you, Bakeraunt - have saved it to my recipe box and will get some tips for the rye bread. Will keep you all updated.

reply by: luvpyrpom on October 18, 2013 at 12:49 am
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I made the bread again and this time it came out beautiful! I increased the water, added the salt and cut back on the yeast. Brought it to work and everyone loved it. Thank you again.

• This topic was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by BakerAunt.